Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Jikan » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:55 pm

Son of Buddha and all, a friendly reminder:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

please pay particular attention to the emphasis on "mutual respect and friendliness"
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:52 pm

rory wrote:Lotus Sutra Chapter 22:


" I have cultivated and practiced the rare Dharmas of anuttarasamyaksambodhi I now entrust them to all of you. You should receive, uphold, read, recite, and vastly proclaim this Dharma, causing all living beings to hear and understand it.

In the future, if there is a good man or a good woman who believes in the Thus Come One's wisdom, you should expound the Dharma Flower Sutra to that person, causing the person to hear and understand and obtain the Buddha's wisdom."
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus22.htm

gassho
Rory

ps: I suggest you return to the Pure Land forum & leave the rest of us to intelligent & respectful discussion.



hey RORY

(1)you are supposed to teach everyone the wonderful law WHEN THEY ARE CAPABLE OF RECEIVING IT did the Buddha just start teaching EVERYONE the lotus sutra??? NO

why didnt he just teach the lotus sutra to everyone???
pg 42 chapt 2(burton watson)"but living beings are dull in capacity are addicted to pleaseure and blinded supidity WITH PERSONS SUCH AS THIS what can i say,how can i save them??
pg 43 chapt 2 "i thoughht to myself that if i merely praised the Buddha vehicle then living beings sunk in their sufferings WOULD BE INCAPABLE OF BELIEVING IN THIS LAW,and because they they rejected the law and failed to believe in it they would fall into the 3 evil paths"

this is why we are given chapter 3 pages 77-79 these are examples of the TYPES of people and people SUCH AS THESE who can acccept and beileive the law.we are to teach them based on their compacity and not RECKLESSLY PROPAGATE THIS LAW chapt 14 pg 207 and again the REASON why we are to find these TYPES OF PEOPLE SUCH AS THESE is because if we chose people who dont have the compacity pg 208 chapt 14 they will not listen and will not beileive and will commit great error chapter 3 is the types of people who are capable of accepting this sutras and again chapter 22 you are to teach EVERYONE when they become capable of accepting this sutra till then you will be recklessly proclaiming the sutra and will cause them HARM cause they are not readly for its transmission.

(2)next you keep saying that you are to abandon the other sutras and Only follow the lotus sutra well the lotus sutra says to FOLLOW,ACCEPT,EMBRACE AND NEVER DISPARAGE THE SUTRA TEACHINGS OF AMITAYUS BUDDHA OF WESTERN RPURELAND ON CHAPT 7 PG 133-134
so if you are to abandon all other sutras BUT ther lotus sutra says to follow the 3 pureland sutras then the 3 pureland sutras must be apart of the lotus sutra since yuou are to abandon all other sutra other than the lotus sutra which the lotus sutra says to follow these sutras:)) get what im saying rory

(3)page 35 chapt 2"My basic aim being to lead them into the great vehicle,AND THAT IS WHY I PREACH THIS SUTTRA"
thre are MANY great vehicle sutras taht make up the great vehicle and this sutra was preached to lead us into that great vehicle.
it is the vehicle for teaching bodhisattvas

P.S. why would i go to a pureland forum reading my name you should know where i belong :D
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:09 pm

Jikan wrote:Son of Buddha and all, a friendly reminder:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3591

please pay particular attention to the emphasis on "mutual respect and friendliness"


yes im sorry for the manner in which I made my points,it could of been in a more welcomeing manner

RORY im sorry if I came across as disrespectful in my writings. In some of my writings, instead of sticking with my points and arguments I was unkind in the manner i spoke of nichiren who was also a practicioner of the lotus sutra chapt 14 pg 201-202 and if i said anything inapropriate to you personaly im sorry

peace and love
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:19 am

Son of Buddha, I accept your apology. Thank you.

Now

1. You keep repeating Chapter 2, but as I showed with links to the text itself, Shariputra task is not to propagate the Lotus Sutra, in Ch. 15 the Eternal Buddha denies the bodhisattvas & bodhisattvas from other worlds' request to transmit the Lotus Sutra; it is the task of the Buddhas from the Under the Earth.
In Chapter 22 - the Eternal Buddha charges the Bodhisattvas from Under the Earth to "I now entrust them to all of you. You should receive, uphold, read, recite, and vastly proclaim this Dharma, causing all living beings to hear and understand it."

We are at an impasse. The plain sense of the Sutra is that the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni wants it transmitted to all living beings.

2. Amitayus - He is preaching the Lotus Sutra
here is the quote from Chapter 7
"These sixteen Bodhisattvas always delight in speaking the Wonderful Dharma Lotus Flower Sutra...Bhikshus, I will tell you, those disciples of the Buddha, the sixteen Shramaneras, have all now attained Anuttarasamyaksambodhi, and in the lands of the ten directions, are presently speaking the Dharma...Two have become Buddhas in the West: One is named Amitayus. The other is named Savior of all Worlds from Suffering and Anguish
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus7.htm

Son of Buddha, the Lotus Sutra is quite explicit as I have showed with full text from the Sutra itself.
1. worship the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni
2. follow only the Lotus Sutra, discarding all expedients.

I suggest you go to the Pure Land forum or some other place as I have been polite and explained and you simply repeat the same arguments.
gassho
rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:46 pm

hey RORY

and i repeatedly showed you the lotus sutra doesnt tell you to abandon the other sutras i even showed you the CONTEXT in which you pulled out that one sentence that it isnt talking about what to do AFTER you have accepted the lotus sutra the CONTEXT is the TYPES of people SUCH AS THESE you are to preach it too cause these TYPES of people can beileve and accept the lotus sutra and wont slander it,which is why the Buddha didnt teach it to us in the first place because we hadnt grown to the capacity to be PEOPLE SUCH AS THESE.

yes the Lord Buddha wants to proclaim the law to all living beings WHEN THEY ARE READY FOR IT which is why he didnt teach it to us when he first became enlightened he knew we were not at the compacity to understand it (and we still are not at that compacity)and when you understand the law you will be a Buddha.
do you need further proof??? chapt 3 pg 62 he is capable of giving all living beings the LAW of the great vehicle BUT NOT ALL OF THEM ARE CAPABLE OF RECEIVING IT.

(2) yes amitayus teaches the lotus sutra and we are to ACCEPT and FOLLOW HIS SUTRAS as the lotus sutra tells us too.and why is that???
also you neglect something VERY IMPORTANT the lotus sutra you read my friend isnt the LAW for the LAW cannot be discribed in words (chapt 2 pg 25)

also you have neglected that the LAW is millions of verses long and has existed before the BOOK we call the lotus sutra existed.(chapter 20 pg267)he heard millions of verses of the lotus sutra(is this book we have millions of verses long????)(chapt 23 pg 283) moreover i heard the lotus sutra with its 800,thosand,tenshousand,miullions of nayutas,kankaras,vivaras, of verses,the wonderful LAW of the lotus sutra isnt the book or the storys it inside the Book chapter 12 do you really thing atisa(devettva) was telling the king(shakyamuni) that their STORY is going to be chapt 12 in the lotus ustra when he preaches it in the future???
or that he atisa will become devetta and try to kill him and he will go to hell????

chapt 2 pg 35 THE great vehicle,the LAW in which all things are equal
chapt 2 pg 35 my basic aim being the to lead them into the great vehicle AND THAT IS WHY I PREACH THIS SUTRA.
chapt 3 pg 62 they make distinctions in the ONE buddha vehicle and preach it as 3

yes worship the eternal Buddha and all Buddhas are the eternal Buddha or did you forget we are to be made EQUAL to the eternal Buddha???also all Buddhas are enlightenend with the SAME enlightenemnt you sir are discriminateing a perfect Budfdha from anouthger perfect Buddha and are trying to make all other buddhas LESSER beings also you NEGLECT to realise that the Buddha says to WORSHIP ALL THE BUDDHAs IN THE LOTUS SUTRA do you need he verses??? why are you teachinmg contray to the lotus sutra??

the lotus ustra doesnt tedll you abandon the other sutras ive already disproven that over and over again.

no why would i go to a pureland forum do you not know where my name comes from????and you havent really explained anything other than rehash the views of a man and not the views of the lotus ustra.
im telling you what the lotus sutra says and you are teaching the views of nichiren.

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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:02 am

Son of Buddha; please go to the Dharma free for all forum which you seem to enjoy. This isn't the place; your circular arguments don't move the discussion forward.

gassho
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Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby illarraza » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:40 am

A little off topic but in reply to Son of a Buddha:

The Lotus Sutra states:

“If I convert by a smaller vehicle
Even but one human being,
I shall fall into grudging
A thing that can not be.” (Lotus Sutra Chapter 2)

“In all the Buddha’s lands of the universe there is but one supreme vehicle, not two or three, and it excludes the provisional teachings of the Buddha.”(Ibid)

“Honestly discarding the provisional teachings, I will now expound the Supreme Way.”(ibid)
“The World-honored One has long expounded his doctrines and now must reveal the truth.” (ibid)

“These nine divisions of my Law
Preached according to the [capacity] of all creatures
Are [but] the introduction of the Great-vehicle
Hence I preach this sutra.”(ibid)

“…desiring only to accept and embrace the sutra of the great vehicle and not accepting a single verse of the other sutras.” (Lotus Sutra Chapter 3)

“If I were to describe the punishments [that fall on persons who slander this sutra], I could exhaust a kalpa and never come to the end.” (ibid)

“If a person fails to have faith but instead slanders this sutra, immediately he will destroy all the seeds for becoming a Buddha in this world. . . . When his life comes to an end he will enter the Avichi hell.” (ibid)

“Suppose that someone coming from a land of famine should suddenly encounter a great king’s feast.” (Lotus Sutra Chapter 6)

“At that time the World-Honored One addressed Bodhisattva Medicine King, and through him the eighty thousand great men, saying: ‘Medicine King, do you see in this great assembly the immeasurable number of heavenly beings, dragon kings, yakshas, gandharvas, asuras, garudas, kimnaras, mahoragas, human and nonhuman beings, as well as monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen, those who seek to become voicehearers, who seek to become pratyekabuddhas, or who seek the Buddha way? Upon these various kinds of beings who in the presence of the Buddha listen to one verse or one phrase of the Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law and for a moment think of it with joy I will bestow on all of them a prophecy that they will attain supreme perfect enlightenment.” (Lotus Sutra Chapter 10)

“The scriptures I preach number in the countless millions. Among all those I have preached, now preach and will preach, this Lotus Sutra is the most difficult to believe and the most difficult to understand.”(Ibid)

“I constantly expounded the Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law alone.” (Lotus Sutra Chapter 12)

“Among all the Sutras it holds the highest place” (Chapter 14)

“At that time the Buddha addressed Emminent Conduct and the host of other Bodhisattvas: “The divine powers of buddhas are so infinite and boundless that they are beyond thought and expression. Even if I, by these divine powers, through infinite, boundless hundred thousand myriad kotis of asemkheya kalpas, for the sake of entailing it, were to declare the merits of this sutra, I should still be unable to reach the end of those [merits]. Essentially speaking, all the laws belonging to the Tathagata, all the mysterious, essential treasuries of the Tathagata, and the very profound conditions of the Tathagata, all are proclaimed, displayed, revealed, and expounded in this sutra.Therefore you should, after the extinction of the Tathagata, wholeheartedly receive and keep, read and recite, explain and copy, cultivate and practice it as the teaching. In whatever land, whether it be received and kept, read and recited, explained and copied cultivated and practiced as the teaching; whether in a place where a volume of the sutra is kept, or in a temple, or in a grove, or under a tree, or in a monastery, or in a lay devotee’s house, in a palace or a mountain, in a valley or in the wilderness, in all these places you must erect a caitya and make offerings.

Wherefore? You should know that [all] these spots are the thrones of enlightenment. On these [spots] the buddhas attain Perfect Enlightenment; on these [spots] the buddhas roll the wheel of the Law; on these [spots] the buddhas [enter] parinirvana.” (Lotus Sutra, Chapter 21)

“Just as Mount Sumeru is the highest among the various mountains , so this Lotus Sutra holds the highest position among all the sutras.”(Chapter 23)

“Amongst all the sutras preached by tathagatas it is the profoundest and greatest.” and “…, so it is also with this Law-Flower Sutra; amongst all the sutras it is the highest,” and “… it is the most illuminating.” and “…it is the most honorable.” and “…it is the king of all sutras.” and “…it is the father of of all the wise and holy men” and “…amongst all the sutras preached by tathagatas, bodhisattvas or preached by sravakas, it is the supreme.”(ibid)

“Star Constellation King Flower! This sutra is that which can save all the living; this sutra can deliver all the living from pain and sufferings; this sutra is able to greatly benefit all the living and fulfill their desires. Just as a clear, cool pool is able to satisfy all those who are thirsty, as the cold who obtain a fire [are satisfied], as the naked who find clothing, as [a caravan of] merchants who find a leader, as children who find their mother, as at a ferry one who catches the boat, as a sick man who finds a doctor, as in the darkness one who obtains a lamp, as a poor man who finds a jewel, …., so it is with this Law-Flower sutra; it is able to deliver all the living from all sufferings and all diseases, and is able to unloose all bonds of mortal life.”(ibid)

“Even the Buddha wisdom could never finish calculating their [benefits] extent.” (ibid)

“If in future ages there should be one who accepts and upholds, reads and recites this sutra,…his wishes shall not be in vain, and he will receive his reward of good fortune in his present life.”(Chapter 28)

Nichiren Daishonin teaches:

“In Tung-ch’un we read:

Question: While the Buddha was in the world, there were many who were resentful and jealous. But in the age after his passing, when someone preaches this [Lotus] sutra, why do so many oppose that person?
Answer: It is said that good medicine tastes bitter. This sutra, which is like good medicine, dispels attachments to the five vehicles and establishes the one ultimate principle. It reproaches those in the ranks of ordinary beings and censures those in the ranks of sagehood, denies [provisional] Mahayana and refutes Hinayana. It speaks of the heavenly devils as poisonous insects and calls non-Buddhists demons. It censures those who cling to Hinayana teachings, calling them mean and impoverished, and it dismisses bodhisattvas as beginners in learning. For this reason, heavenly devils hate to listen to it, non-Buddhists find their ears offended, persons of the two vehicles are dumbfounded, and bodhisattvas flee in terror. That is why all these types of people try to make hindrances [for a practitioner of the Lotus Sutra]. The Buddha was not speaking nonsense when he declared that hatred and jealousy would abound.” — The Opening of the Eyes

The Lotus Sutra is not pluralistic and all paths do not lead to the Buddha’s Land. The provisional teachings can be likened to scaffolding that is discarded after the temple is complete or retainers serving their king.

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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby dsaly1969 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:18 am

Basically if one accepts Nichiren's writings in the Gosho / Goibun as inerrant which is the position of the Nichiren sects then one would accept Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land. This issue is primarily the reason that Rissho Kosei-kai identifies itself as a Lotus Sutra sect of Buddhism rather than a Nichiren sect. While we honor Nichiren for popularizing and propagating the Lotus Sutra in Japan, we do not elevate him to that kind of status of being infallible or inerrant so RKK uses the Lotus Sutra but does not accept Gosho as infallible or generally refer to it. (This is the main reason why RKK did not become a lay organization for Nichiren Shu, for example, as our practice is very similar but the outlook can be different although we still respect the Nichiren sects.)

But that being said, RKK like many other newer post-Tendai Japanese Buddhist sects is primarily a "single practice" school where our primary practice is recitation of portions of the Lotus Sutra (and sutra study) and Odaimoku so you generally would not see a lot of blending of traditions and practices from other sects like you may see in Tendai or Chinese Buddhism for example.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby illarraza » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:36 am

:( Sorry for my discourtesy. Hi all.

Nichiren talked alot about the Pure Land. He either spoke about the Pure Land existing wherever the Lotus Sutra is practiced and upheld, about constructing the Pure Land in this Saha World, or the principle that one with steadfast faith in the Lotus Sutra will surely arrive at the Pure Land to meet Shakyamuni and Many Treasures Buddha. Please note that the Pure Land of which he spoke was the Pure Land of Vulture Peak and not the Pure Land of Amida in the West.

Here are some examples:

"Everywhere other than the Capital of Tranquil Light is a realm of suffering. Once you leave the haven of inherent enlightenment, what is there to bring you joy? I pray that you will embrace the Mystic Law, which guarantees that people “will enjoy peace and security in their present existence and good circumstances in future existences.” This is the only glory that you need seek in your present lifetime, and is the action that will draw you toward Buddhahood in your next existence. Single-mindedly chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and urge others to do the same; that will remain as the only memory of your present life in this human world. Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, Namu-myoho-renge-kyo." -- Embracing the Lotus Sutra

Earlier in this writing he spoke specifically about the Pure Land and the existence to come:

One may think fondly of one’s native village, but, paying no visit and with no particular reason to go, one in time gives up the idea of returning. Or one may pine for a particular person, but, with no hope of winning that person’s love and having exchanged no vows, one abandons the thought of waiting. So in like manner we neglect to journey to the pure land of Eagle Peak, though it surpasses in grandeur the palaces of nobles and high ministers, and moreover is quite easy to reach. We fail to behold the gentle and benign figure of the Buddha, who has declared, “I am a father to you,”31 though we ought surely to present ourselves before him. Should we not grieve at this, until our sleeves are drenched with tears and our heart consumed by regret?

The color of the clouds in the sky as twilight falls, the waning light of the moon when dawn is breaking—these things make us ponder. In the same way, whenever events remind us of life’s uncertainty, we should fix our thoughts on the existence to come. When we view the blossoms of spring or the snow on a winter morning, we should think of it, and even on evenings when winds bluster and gathering clouds tumble across the sky, we should not forget it even for an instant.

Life lasts no longer than the time the exhaling of one breath awaits the drawing of another. At what time, what moment, should we ever allow ourselves to forget the compassionate vow of the Buddha, who declared, “At all times I think to myself: [How can I cause living beings to gain entry into the unsurpassed way and quickly acquire the body of a Buddha]?” On what day or month should we permit ourselves to be without the sutra that says, “[If there are those who hear the Law], then not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood”?

How long can we expect to live on as we have, from yesterday to today or from last year to this year? We may look back over our past and count the years we have accumulated, but when we look ahead into the future, who can for certain number himself among the living for another day or even for an hour? Yet, though one may know that the moment of one’s death is already at hand, one clings to arrogance and prejudice, to worldly fame and profit, and fails to devote oneself to chanting the Mystic Law. Such an attitude is futile beyond description! Even though the Lotus Sutra is called the teaching that enables all living beings to attain the Buddha way, how could a person such as this actually attain it? It is said that even the moonlight will not deign to shine on the sleeve of an unfeeling person."

"Though we live in the impure land, our hearts reside in the pure land of Eagle Peak." -- The Drum at the Gate of Thunder

"I hope those who read it will remain firm in their faith so that both teacher and disciples can together reach the pure land of Eagle Peak and behold with reverence the faces of Shakyamuni Buddha, Many Treasures Buddha, and the Buddhas of the ten directions." -- The True Object of Worship

"Although I am neither Shakyamuni Buddha nor the Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai, because each day I read the Lotus Sutra day and night and discuss Great Concentration and Insight morning and evening, this place is like the pure land of Eagle Peak and in no way different from Mount T’ien-t’ai.: -- Reply to the Wife of Matsuno

"Then, at the last moment of your life, you will be welcomed by a thousand Buddhas, who will take you swiftly to the pure land of Eagle Peak where you will experience the boundless joy of the Law." -- Letter to Nikke

"This is indeed an accursed time to live in this land! However, the Buddha has commanded me to be born in this age, and it is impossible for me to go against the decree of the Dharma King. And so, as the sutra dictates, I have launched the battle between the provisional and the true teachings. Donning the armor of endurance and girding myself with the sword of the wonderful teaching, I have raised the banner of the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the heart of the entire eight volumes of the Lotus Sutra. Then, drawing the bow of the Buddha’s declaration, “I have not yet revealed the truth,” and notching the arrow of “honestly discarding the provisional teachings,” I have mounted the carriage drawn by the great white ox and battered down the gates of the provisional teachings. Attacking first one and then another, I have refuted opponents from the eight and ten schools, such as the Nembutsu, True Word, Zen, and Precepts. Some have fled headlong while others have retreated, and still others have been captured to become my disciples. I continue to repulse their attacks and to defeat them, but legions of enemies exist who oppose the single Dharma King and the handful who follow him. So the battle goes on even today.

“The Lotus Sutra is the teaching of shakubuku, the refutation of the provisional doctrines.” True to the letter of this golden saying, in the end, every last one of the believers of the provisional teachings and schools will be defeated and join the retinue of the Dharma King. The time will come when all people will abandon the various kinds of vehicles and take up the single vehicle of Buddhahood, and the Mystic Law alone will flourish throughout the land. When the people all chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, the wind will no longer buffet the branches, and the rain will no longer break the clods of soil. The world will become as it was in the ages of Fu Hsi and Shen Nung. In their present existence the people will be freed from misfortune and disasters and learn the art of living long. Realize that the time will come when the truth will be revealed that both the person and the Law are unaging and eternal. There cannot be the slightest doubt about the sutra’s promise of “peace and security in their present existence.” -- On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings
Last edited by illarraza on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby illarraza » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:24 am

dsaly1969 wrote:Basically if one accepts Nichiren's writings in the Gosho / Goibun as inerrant which is the position of the Nichiren sects then one would accept Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land. This issue is primarily the reason that Rissho Kosei-kai identifies itself as a Lotus Sutra sect of Buddhism rather than a Nichiren sect. While we honor Nichiren for popularizing and propagating the Lotus Sutra in Japan, we do not elevate him to that kind of status of being infallible or inerrant so RKK uses the Lotus Sutra but does not accept Gosho as infallible or generally refer to it. (This is the main reason why RKK did not become a lay organization for Nichiren Shu, for example, as our practice is very similar but the outlook can be different although we still respect the Nichiren sects.)

But that being said, RKK like many other newer post-Tendai Japanese Buddhist sects is primarily a "single practice" school where our primary practice is recitation of portions of the Lotus Sutra (and sutra study) and Odaimoku so you generally would not see a lot of blending of traditions and practices from other sects like you may see in Tendai or Chinese Buddhism for example.


I understand dsaly. The original poster asked for Nichiren's interpretation of Pure Land. Do you consider Nikkyo Niwano inerrant? I have never heard anyone in the RKK criticizing him or pointing out his errors. I, on the other hand, have no compunction about criticizing Niwano, Hoza, or the RKK neo-Buddhist prosperity cult in general. Comparing Nikkyo Niwano to Nichiren Daishonin is comparing a firefly to the sun. Just my humble opinion, of course. I have saved several dialogues with members of the RKK, if you care to see them. I'll make a deal with you. Don't enter into a Nichiren forum criticizing or even diminishing Nichiren and I won't enter into a RKK forum criticizing Niwano. As far as the errors of Nichiren Daishonin, a child today knows more science than did Nichiren Daishonin. That having been said, the Buddhist masters of India, China, Japan, and Tibet of yesterday and today [save for Shakyamuni Buddha] can not hold a candle to him as far as leading the masses of beings to the Land of Eternal Quiescent Light.

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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby dsaly1969 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:30 pm

illarraza wrote:
I understand dsaly. The original poster asked for Nichiren's interpretation of Pure Land. Do you consider Nikkyo Niwano inerrant? I have never heard anyone in the RKK criticizing him or pointing out his errors. I, on the other hand, have no compunction about criticizing Niwano, Hoza, or the RKK neo-Buddhist prosperity cult in general. Comparing Nikkyo Niwano to Nichiren Daishonin is comparing a firefly to the sun. Just my humble opinion, of course. I have saved several dialogues with members of the RKK, if you care to see them. I'll make a deal with you. Don't enter into a Nichiren forum criticizing or even diminishing Nichiren and I won't enter into a RKK forum criticizing Niwano. As far as the errors of Nichiren Daishonin, a child today knows more science than did Nichiren Daishonin. That having been said, the Buddhist masters of India, China, Japan, and Tibet of yesterday and today [save for Shakyamuni Buddha] can not hold a candle to him as far as leading the masses of beings to the Land of Eternal Quiescent Light.

Illarraza


You do not need to be rude nor was I criticizing Nichiren if you read my post correctly. I do not view Niwano to be inerrant nor do I consider Nichiren to be inerrant. Since there is no teaching of "chanting for stuff" in RKK, you are completely incorrect about RKK as a "propsperity cult". I was just pointing out the communication impasse due to different perceptions of Nichiren. So perhaps if you are a Buddhist then you should stop being so overly sensitive as I was very politic in my post.

I'll make you a deal. You don't be rude and I won't point out your behavior for you.

:stirthepot:
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:17 pm

Greetings and Good Afternoon,

Dsaly, that sounds like a fair deal. However, please note, specifically: Illarraza has a fairly transparent MO when posting. He will be rude to the point that he is ejected from a forum. Then, within his own little group, he will wave that fact around like a banner, perceiving that he has been faced with the "three obstacles and the four devils." He can be perceived to be delusional.

Now, generally speaking, when one interprets Nichiren to either be discarded (as we can perceive to have happened in various 'prosperity' cults and new religions) or to be relied upon on super-literal terms, these are two dangerous extremes.

Nichiren was a Mahayana buddhist reformer. His life and, moreso, his actions and persecutions for the sake of the Dharma are truly inspiring and he should never be disparaged for what, at times, could seem like an overbearing commitment to the single practice of daimoku. Daimoku is a lifetime of practice, to be sure.

However, in the tradition of Buddhism, over so many centuries, debates have occurred, ideas were discarded, ideas were adopted, and this still goes on. Buddhism is a living tradition and we should not stick so closely to our own views on the matter not on the views of just priests or monks, even Nichiren. We should rely on the Law, not on the Person.

gassho
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Mr. G » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:19 pm

illarraza wrote:That having been said, the Buddhist masters of India, China, Japan, and Tibet of yesterday and today [save for Shakyamuni Buddha] can not hold a candle to him as far as leading the masses of beings to the Land of Eternal Quiescent Light.

Illarraza


In your very humble opinion of course. :roll: :lol:
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby dsaly1969 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:09 pm

UniversalWorthy wrote:Nichiren was a Mahayana buddhist reformer. His life and, moreso, his actions and persecutions for the sake of the Dharma are truly inspiring and he should never be disparaged for what, at times, could seem like an overbearing commitment to the single practice of daimoku. Daimoku is a lifetime of practice, to be sure.

However, in the tradition of Buddhism, over so many centuries, debates have occurred, ideas were discarded, ideas were adopted, and this still goes on. Buddhism is a living tradition and we should not stick so closely to our own views on the matter not on the views of just priests or monks, even Nichiren. We should rely on the Law, not on the Person.

gassho


Oh, I hope folks are not getting the idea that I do not honor Nichiren. In fact, I think he truly an inspiring practitioner, a Bodhissatva of Superior Practice. I am a member of RKK because I do not accept Nichiren's Gosho as authoritative, in my opinion (and I certainly could be wrong), but we (RKK) revere Nichiren as a person (and we even formally praise him in our daily liturgy) - he was just flawed like the rest of us, including me. And RKK works quite closely with Nichiren Shu and Tendai quite frequently.

And I think this thread is an ongoing circular debate because of different base assumptions about the authority of the Gosho. Folks are simply talking past each other.

To go back to some of the other points, RKK is "noncreedal" which means we respect the writings of Niwano but we are not bound to them. They are a starting point for our own study and our own developed perceptions.

Perhaps on these forums we should all aspire to model the behavior of Bodhisattva Never Despise in Chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra. I hope one day to even somewhat meet that ideal.

:namaste:
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:56 am

It's beyond me how you can revere Nichiren as a bodhisattva and not follow what he says. Bodhisattvas have prajna; Nichiren has prajna.

And Mark is correct who before gave Daimoku to regular people, we can see how numerous are the people who've practiced Master Chih-I's meditations and have achieved buddhahood -not. Nichiren is rightly revered for his tremendous compassion to help us out of Samsara.

Bodhisattva Never Despise was kalpas ago. Shakyamuni Buddha came in our age preached the Lotus Sutra, the chapter of Transmission entrusts spreading the Dharma to the Bodhisattvas from Under the Earth, no one else. They are our models In Mappo, Mark and I strive to emulate the Bodhisattvas from under the earth. Mark has certainly been a bodhisattva to me & very kind. But then I don't mind having my assumptions questioned or a vigorus debate!
gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby UniversalWorthy » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:15 pm

Rory, I think you are very sincere in your aspiration and efforts to engage and honor the three treasures. One who aspires to the Way might be concerned about this notion of "following what he says.". The living and evolving tradition of buddhism requires extremely close observation and inspection, but not merely fetishization of this or that one. If , let's say, you have practiced within countless sanghas and sects or schools, if you merely reduced the entire tradition to one great teacher like Nichiren then I believe that you would be forcing that living tradition into a static state of unquestionable authority. Just my opinion.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:13 am

Universal Worthy;
I and my school unite faith and intellect. Now the Lotus Sutra states that we should abandon expedients and former sutras.This was the last sutra Shakyamuni Buddha taught before his parinirvana and the Nirvana Sutra, which upholds the teachings of the Lotus Sutra. Since in another thread "are sutras meant to be taken literally?' all agreed from different schools that was the case. Then I'm following Shakyamuni Buddha by taking the Lotus Sutra literally and abandoning my former Pure Land practice.

Now as for Nichiren, if you believe he's a bodhisattva than you appreciate his prajna. Nichiren was dead against worshipping with other sects or, the entire inter-faith thing that is so trendy today. Now as a woman, as a gay woman, do I believe that; Islam,Judaism, Christianity, Confucianism are equally beneficial? Not in a million years. I've seen a number of photos of inter-faith meetings with Zero women. The sheer irony. I know all about the various patriarchal and harmful norms of these religions: menstruating women being unclean, same-sex lovers considered sinful, men being in charge of women..

Nichiren and Lotus Sutra Buddhism are the best teachings anywhere available for women, to live the best lives. We are treated equally with an equal opportunity to achieve Buddhahood. And you don't need access to lots of money or education. It's for everyone.

So now I've used my intellect and discrimination to trust Shakyamuni Buddha and & used my intellect to examine and decide about Nichiren Daishonin's teachings.

If others want to trust Niwano, Ikeda, the poor sad Kalu rinpoche, the zen priest who slept with his students etc..those are their choices. With Nichiren Daishonin I have none of these issues. He was a man of immense probity, concern for rich and poor, female and male, strength, wisdom and compassion.

gassho
Rory

[quote="UniversalWorthy"]Rory, I think you are very sincere in your aspiration and efforts to engage and honor the three treasures. One who aspires to the Way might be concerned about this notion of "following what he says.". The living and evolving tradition of buddhism requires extremely close observation and inspection, but not merely fetishization of this or that one.
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby Jikan » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:20 pm

Friendly reminder to all participants, myself included:

It's fine to disagree with each other and with teachers of various lineages, but let's be particularly careful with our speech in describing such persons living or dead.

the poor sad Kalu rinpoche


to cite one instance.

Play the ball, not the bodhisattva.
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby rory » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:29 pm

JIkan; I was very careful with my words as this young man has all my sympathy, pity and compassion. In his own words he was molested, a drug addict and not happy and warned about idealizing figures who wear red robes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Ka3bEN1rs

I respect his truthfulness
gassho
Rory
Dharani of Amoghapasa Avalokitesvara:

Om amogha-padma-pasa-krodhakarsaya praveshaya maha-pashupati-yama-varuna-kuvera
brahma-vesa-dhara padma-kula-samayan hum hum

heart mantra: Om amogha vijaya hum phat
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Re: Nichiren's interpretation of the Pure Land

Postby illarraza » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:38 am

rory wrote:JIkan; I was very careful with my words as this young man has all my sympathy, pity and compassion. In his own words he was molested, a drug addict and not happy and warned about idealizing figures who wear red robes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Ka3bEN1rs

I respect his truthfulness
gassho
Rory


Powerful video Rory. Thanks for sharing. That's one reason why Guru Yoga is a false religion and why we [the Kempon Hokke] not only criticize the Tibetian lineages but especially the Soka Gakkai.
"Follow the Law not the person", follow the finest teachers, Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin.

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