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Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two - Dhamma Wheel

Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Wind
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Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:35 am

The three main defilement are greed, hatred, delusion. Can one of them be totally eliminated before the other two? Or are they only eliminated as a whole?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:37 am

Greetings Wind,

As I understand it, delusion is a necessary condition for greed and aversion. In other words, they cannot operate without the presence of delusion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Wind
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:39 am

Oh I thought ignorance was the condition for all three?
Last edited by Wind on Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:40 am

Greetings Wind,

Well... you could have greed without aversion, and aversion without greed, and delusion on its own.

(I think that's right).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Wind
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:47 am

Btw Retro, I edited my previous post. I think all three defilement are link by ignorance right? And they operate independently of one another if not mistaken.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:19 am

The Non-returners are completely free from greed and aversion, but not yet free from ignorance.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:31 am


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:18 am

Ignorance is not knowing something.
Delusion is a mistaken belief. What you think is so, isnt.

But as always...it comes down to translation.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:21 am

Greetings,

In terms of the difference, I see "ignorance" as lack of knowledge regarding penetration of the 4NT. I see "delusion" as a temporary condition, the opposite of "vipassana" (seeing things as they really are).

I can't guarantee that's spot on, but that's how I understand them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Stiphan » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:25 am

Yes, ignorance is not knowing the FNT. Delusion is taking what is impermanent to be permanent, taking what is suffering to be happiness, taking what is nonself to be self, and taking what is not beautiful to be beautiful.

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:41 am

To quote Will Rogers " It ain't what you don't know that hurts you * Its what you know that aint so.."

*( although that bit is debatable from a Buddhist POV ).
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:43 am


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Ben
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Ben » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:46 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:47 pm

Greetings Ben,

That is the Theravada view, isn't it?

I hope I didn't misrepresent it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Ben » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:02 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Ben
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Ben » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:08 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:14 pm

Thanks Ben... just thought I should check.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sanghamitta
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:32 pm

Retrofuturist you are in fact Ian Curtis and I claim my 5 pounds !
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:17 am

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

moha [moha]:
Delusion; ignorance (avijja).. One of three unwholesome roots (mula) in the mind.

avijja [avijjaa]:
Unawareness; ignorance; obscured awareness; delusion about the nature of the mind. See also moha.

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Virgo » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:24 pm




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