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Insight practice and Metta-- at once? - Dhamma Wheel

Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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purist_andrew
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Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby purist_andrew » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:57 pm


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:11 pm

many people do metta meditation prior to a different mediation practice.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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purist_andrew
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby purist_andrew » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:23 pm

Last edited by purist_andrew on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bodom
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby bodom » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:23 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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bodom
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby bodom » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:51 pm

To practice metta in daily life, just think kind thoughts about everyone you come into contact with. "May you have happiness, health etc. the way you would during formal meditation. More importantly than this you can show others kindness through your actions by giving a smile, holding a door for someone, helping a friend move etc. just little things like this. And even more important than that you can show other's kindness through speech. Give a complement, give advice if asked and speak with others happiness and welfare always in mind. This is mindfulness. There is no need to think now im practicing metta, now im practicing sati. Metta is sati in the sense of keeping mindful of others welfare. There is no need to seperate the two.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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purist_andrew
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby purist_andrew » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:58 pm


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:21 pm

i believe according to the visuddhimagga that that type of metta (actually radiating it out to others) can only be achieved by one with mastery in jhana otherwise you're just practicing wishful thinking.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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purist_andrew
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby purist_andrew » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:30 pm


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:44 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

rowyourboat
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:37 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:45 pm

disagree based on what? the khun Sujin / Nina Van gorkom approach is straight out of the abhidhamma/commentarial tradition so it's classic Theravada.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

rowyourboat
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:48 pm

AN 8.63 PTS: A iv 299
Sankhitta Sutta: In Brief
(Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010
Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana.

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute."

"But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me."

"May the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be that I will understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I will become an heir to the Blessed One's words."

"Then, monk, you should train yourself thus: 'My mind will be established inwardly, well-composed. No evil, unskillful qualities, once they have arisen, will remain consuming the mind.' That's how you should train yourself.

"Then you should train yourself thus: 'Good-will, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity.

"When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'Compassion, as my awareness-release... Appreciation, as my awareness-release... Equanimity, as my awareness-release, will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity.

"When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should then train yourself thus: 'I will remain focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity.

"When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, you should train yourself: 'I will remain focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought & evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought & no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity.

"When this concentration is thus developed, thus well-developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort."

Then that monk, having been admonished by an admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:50 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Rui Sousa
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby Rui Sousa » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:43 pm

Metta meditation creates the conditions to eradicate ill will and promote good will, which then will make concentration easier (by overcoming the hindrances), which will then make insight easier.

Metta is just one of the forty objects of concentration the Buddha recommended, and each has its own beneficts.

On vipassana exercices metta, as a cetasika, will also be a subjet of meditation, so it all comes together.

I hope this is helpful.
With Metta

rowyourboat
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:25 pm

My disagreement is based on the concept of 'mahaggatta' - limitless as a state of mind that can arise before jhanic levels of samadhi ie- boundless metta does not have to be in jhana. This is based on the suttas and it is also my experience. If anyone refutes this based on an analytical understanding of the dhamma then it clearly shows me that this person has no experience with the development of boundless metta and jhana practice. This reminds me of the abhidhamma divising 9 jhanas because it makes sense analytically(one jhana factor disappearing in each rupa jhana + 4 arupa jhana) - but there are only 8 jhanas and that i know is a fact- because the suttas say it and it is my experience.

from the satipatthana sutta:

"When the mind is constricted (sankitta-sleepy), he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged (mahaggatta), he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed (jhana), he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

MN99
Here a bhikkhu abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world.

IMO Abhidhamma is a confusion an unnecessary burden on the dhamma, tradition or not.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:30 pm

Hi, RYB -

Your meditation boat is an advanced one [it is equipped with an engine with overdrive gearing, so you don't have to row it!].

I like your linking of MN 99 and MN 10 to MN 117 !

Expanding a little more on MN 117, I think this sutta is unique in the sense that it clearly shows how the mundane 8-fold-path factors may become the supra-mundane factors, e.g. how the mundane right view of an instructed disciple becomes the supra-mundane right view of an Ariya puggala, through repeated applications of right view + right effort + right mindfulness. MN 117 also importantly shows how the four foundations of mindfulness are supported by the previous 6 path factors, and finally how the four jhanas (= right concentration) are supported by supra-mundane right view + right thought (samma-sankappo) + right speech + right actions + right livelihood + right effort + right mindfulness. My discussion of MN 117 over the past several years revealed to me that quite a few Buddhists were confused about the path factors.

So I am glad to finally have found someone who knows what he is talking about! :smile:


With appreciation,


Tep
----

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Goedert
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:19 am

Hello friend,

One who have the tendencie to byapada, its is better to this one use metta meditation first, then his practice will become more easy.

One who have the tendencie to uddhaccakukkuca, it is better to this use anapanasati first, then his pratice will become more easy.

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:37 am


PeterB
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby PeterB » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:10 pm


PeterB
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Re: Insight practice and Metta-- at once?

Postby PeterB » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:17 pm



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