words to the west

[Adamantine]

That question was directed at Konchog1, not you.

It doesn't matter, I was responding to your implication about Tibetan's hospitality and "stereotyping" which in 20 years of many different relationships both here and in Asia I have yet to encounter.

[Adamantine]

This letter by Lama Tharchin was already linked to in this thread, and I already excerpted this section in another-- but I will quote it again now in the hopes it will break up this barroom brawl:

However, our phenomena belong only to us, and whatever appears is only a gauge of our own mind. As (Thinley Norbu)Rinpoche points out in the interview, the absolutely crucial point is to examine our own minds. Although good or bad teachers may appear to you, you can only perceive them at the level of your own mind. If our minds are negative, then it is like someone with jaundice who will perceive a pure white snow mountain as yellow. The qualities and faults that we see in another person fully depend upon our own mental capacity. It is never necessary to reject or condemn others since we may later appreciate them with a different view. Practice actually means to purify one’s own mind until all phenomena are perceived as pure. Practice turns our usual focus on others around to focus on ourselves. Usually we take our own faults, which are like the size of a mountain, and try to hide them. Then we find others’ faults, which are like the size of a sesame seed, and display them for everyone to see and talk about. Instead, we should try to practice from a Buddhist point of view. Even though one person may have a hundred different faults, still they have at least one quality. Instead of judging the hundred faults, we should find that one quality and emulate it. Then we will be connected only with positive phenomena, not negative, which will lead us to greater purity. This is the Buddhist way.

[Dechen Norbu]

.

1. Blacks don't have chances when prejudiced against.
2. Buddhism is a choice, Blackness is not.
3. There a lot of fad quasi Buddhists, higher expectations would help them go one way or another. There is no parallel here.

1- Westerners don't have chances when prejudiced against. It's the same. Gladly, it's not like that everywhere.
2- You present this backwards. Blacks don't have a choice about their color. Westerners don't have a choice about their place of birth. The relation here is black-> prejudice and westerner-> prejudice, not Buddhist-> prejudice. You can't chose not to be a westerner.
3- Again, and from the above, that point is moot. The problem comes when serious western Buddhists face prejudice because they are not Asian.

There's a lot of fake Western teachers. There's a lot of fake Tibetan teachers. There's a lot of fake teachers. It was always like this. There's an oportunity and there's people who take advantage. I remember one of my Tibetan teachers saying to me: "People have to be careful. There are a lot of craaazy lamas!". He wasn't talking about Westerners.
Realization is very rare. People should be careful when they choose their teachers, whatever their nationality.

[Dechen Norbu]

This letter by Lama Tharchin was already linked to in this thread, and I already excerpted this section in another-- but I will quote it again now in the hopes it will break up this barroom brawl:

However, our phenomena belong only to us, and whatever appears is only a gauge of our own mind. As (Thinley Norbu)Rinpoche points out in the interview, the absolutely crucial point is to examine our own minds. Although good or bad teachers may appear to you, you can only perceive them at the level of your own mind. If our minds are negative, then it is like someone with jaundice who will perceive a pure white snow mountain as yellow. The qualities and faults that we see in another person fully depend upon our own mental capacity. It is never necessary to reject or condemn others since we may later appreciate them with a different view. Practice actually means to purify one’s own mind until all phenomena are perceived as pure. Practice turns our usual focus on others around to focus on ourselves. Usually we take our own faults, which are like the size of a mountain, and try to hide them. Then we find others’ faults, which are like the size of a sesame seed, and display them for everyone to see and talk about. Instead, we should try to practice from a Buddhist point of view. Even though one person may have a hundred different faults, still they have at least one quality. Instead of judging the hundred faults, we should find that one quality and emulate it. Then we will be connected only with positive phenomena, not negative, which will lead us to greater purity. This is the Buddhist way.

Not interpreting this words correctly is a highway to justify abuse!
Your teacher is a fake who sleeps with your wife or kids? Look to your faults and perceive him as pure.
You get raped? Look to your faults because it's your karma or similar nonsense.
Conclusions like the above may be used to cover just about anything. IF misinterpreted. You see, words like the above have been used to disguise the bad conduct of all sorts of corrupt teachers.
The fact is that beginners can't maintain pure view and need to know what to accept and what to reject. One fault among the many we may have is not having discriminating wisdom.
One thing is applying these teachings so that we avoid indulging in our mental bad habits and expose our faults so that we can deal with them. Their nature is also pure. They are an ashtray made of gold, as are other's faults. This, by no means, may serve to create a moral relativism of sorts where anything goes.
I know this is not your intention and most likely not the intention of the author. It's a classic teaching. However, it's also one of those teachings that can be placed out of context and end up becoming harmful.

[Indrajala]

That question was directed at Konchog1, not you.

It doesn't matter, I was responding to your implication about Tibetan's hospitality and "stereotyping" which in 20 years of many different relationships both here and in Asia I have yet to encounter.

My original comments were as follows:

I've heard before that some Tibetan lamas have expressed dismay about the spiritual faculties of students in the west. This is probably related to the prevailing reality-world views which are inherently materialistic and foster adharmic views, doubt and scepticism rather than right views, conviction and intellectual prowess.

It is Konchog1 that is speaking of a purportedly widespread prejudice and stereotyping against westerners:

Konchog1 wrote:Those with a karmic connection would have no problem then. No. It's bad for Tibetans to be prejudiced (same as for anyone else) but it's positive and rewarding for us.

[Adamantine]

*snip*.

DUDE, you could have saved so much breath if you had just read the letter.. do I need to spell it all out?

This paragraph immediately precedes the one you are reacting to (sorry, I thought since the link was posted, people would use it)

Our respect for this lineage is not partial to any country or worldly tradition, and it does not arise from stupid faith. Its value is demonstrated again and again by those who hold pure lineage and do pure practice. Their dualistic, afflictive emotional minds are exhausted into non-dualistic inexhaustible wisdom. This can be shown by how the gross elemental body is exhausted into the rainbow body. Countless practitioners in India and Tibet have achieved rainbow body. For example, at Kathog Monastery in Tibet, over 100,000 people have attained rainbow body up until now. In this century too, Dud’jom Lingpa had thirteen students who attained rainbow body by following his lineage. This is not only myth or ancient history, but is carried on through lineages that are vital today. This proves that lineage has great import and meaning. Without this, however smart we are, however culturally developed we are, we cannot achieve this state, instead staying always embroiled in the confusion of our limited dualistic minds. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche is one who holds this pure lineage and can lead us from our confused dualistic minds to wisdom mind. Of course, there are teachers of varying qualities and many different types of teachers, from sublime wisdom teachers to spiritual friends. Since Dharma is relatively new to the West, it is more difficult for Westerners to distinguish between these. There are many guides in Tibetan literature, which teach us how to examine teachers before making a commitment to them, and how to examine ourselves as students. The Words of My Perfect Teacher by Paltrül Rinpoche, for example, includes such a teaching and is excellently translated into English. You can find false teachers everywhere, not only in America. On a relative level, it is important to rely on a good teacher who has the ability to open our own wisdom and compassion. They will lead us on the path beyond dualistic mind, even beyond samsara and nirvana, to full liberation. Although Buddha nature is inherent in all of us, it has not blossomed due to always relying on our own dualistic mind. So we must develop the ability to choose teachers with wisdom and compassion, who are not teaching out of confusion or for their own fame or gain.

[Adamantine]

It is Konchog1 that is speaking of a purportedly widespread prejudice and stereotyping against westerners:

Konchog1 wrote:Those with a karmic connection would have no problem then. No. It's bad for Tibetans to be prejudiced (same as for anyone else) but it's positive and rewarding for us.

Yeah but it's a stupid debate because he is just talking about some theoretical prejudice if it did exist, and you're replying passionately about his theoretical prejudice, and you're spinning the idea so far beyond the theoretical you are empowering it, and some people are going to read this thread and think you were doing something other than just blowing a lot of hot air, and suddenly there is then a prejudice that Tibetan's are prejudice. SO why not come back down to the ground..do any of these ideas of prejudice accord with your experience of Tibetans? They certainly don't with mine, and I've had a lot of experience.

[Dechen Norbu]

I think you may have misinterpreted my intentions or I may have not been clear.
When I addressed the paragraph you quoted my point was simple, Adamantine: context. I just made a small note about it that is a little off topic.
Standing alone, may be misleading. I said IF it was misinterpreted. I also pointed why briefly.
Understanding these teachings properly has little to do with the debate about the nationality of teachers, as there are fake teachers everywhere. The author agrees and I never said otherwise. That's not what I'm debating, the view of the author that is. I don't know him well enough.
My point It is more related to know what to do when we have the misfortune of meeting a fake teacher while being in the possession of information like the one contained in the 1st paragraph you quoted. If we understand the first paragraph correctly, we will move on and won't dwell in negativity. If we miss the meaning of it, we may end up justifying in our minds the wrong behavior of a fake teacher. That may ruin our life.
That's it.
Unfortunately we have enough scandals and victims to support what I'm saying. But this is off topic, perhaps. Just seemed important to state. In any way this has nothing to do with lama Tharchin.

[Dechen Norbu]

It is Konchog1 that is speaking of a purportedly widespread prejudice and stereotyping against westerners:

Konchog1 wrote:Those with a karmic connection would have no problem then. No. It's bad for Tibetans to be prejudiced (same as for anyone else) but it's positive and rewarding for us.

Yeah but it's a stupid debate because he is just talking about some theoretical prejudice if it did exist, and you're replying passionately about his theoretical prejudice, and you're spinning the idea so far beyond the theoretical you are empowering it, and some people are going to read this thread and think you were doing something other than just blowing a lot of hot air, and suddenly there is then a prejudice that Tibetan's are prejudice. SO why not come back down to the ground..do any of these ideas of prejudice accord with your experience of Tibetans? They certainly don't with mine, and I've had a lot of experience.

Are you saying that most Tibetans aren't prejudiced against Westerners in what comes to the practice of Dharma!? Really?!
Many teachers aren't, especially those who already know us well. But many Tibetans are greatly prejudiced against Westerners in terms of Dharma practice!

[Dechen Norbu]

I tell you even more. To some Tibetan "teachers", and unfortunately they are not so few, Westerners are little more than cows lining up to be milked so that they rebuild their monasteries for Tibetans in Tibet, India or Nepal. This is not a secret, for goodness sake. It's also becoming less common as more and more Westerners are waking up to this reality and choose teachers more carefully these days. The Buddhism fad seems to have passed and now many Western students are much more cautions than they were a few decades back. The mesmerizing effect of a set of robes and Tibetan looks seems to be fading. That is not surprising if we take notice of the numerous episodes of deception that happened already. Coming to the West to finance their projects and then disappearing never to be seen again, or just very rarely, while leaving a bunch of deeply hurt students was common practice, sadly. No wonder people are more careful now.

[heart]

I tell you even more. To some Tibetan "teachers", and unfortunately they are not so few, Westerners are little more than cows lining up to be milked so that they rebuild their monasteries for Tibetans in Tibet, India or Nepal. This is not a secret, for goodness sake. It's also becoming less common as more and more Westerners are waking up to this reality and choose teachers more carefully these days. The Buddhism fad seems to have passed and now many Western students are much more cautions than they were a few decades back. The mesmerizing effect of a set of robes and Tibetan looks seems to be fading. That is not surprising if we take notice of the numerous episodes of deception that happened already. Coming to the West to finance their projects and then disappearing never to be seen again, or just very rarely, while leaving a bunch of deeply hurt students was common practice, sadly. No wonder people are more careful now.

Just curious, but what kind of disciples is it that expect that the teacher shall continuously appear in their own backyard? How about go to meet him/her yourself? Or did you actually mean that the teacher couldn't be found anymore? Disrobed and changed his name and is now living in a nice bungalow with a sea view at some unknown address enjoying the disciples money?
In my personal experience there are not many Lamas that make so much money on teaching in the west, mainly because Western Dharma centers are high maintenance and that very few Westeners are very generous. My own Lama often give the whole donation back to the Dharma center. If you want only want to make money it is much easier in Taiwan or Malaysia where generosity is a natural part of laymen practice.
So, what exactly are you talking about here? There seem to be some personal bitterness.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

There's a lot in there, what do you not accept? All of it? Or just the part about Western Dharma teachers?

"Because Americans are very arrogant and their capitalism’s-habit is to think they are very superior to everyone else. They don’t respect other races, and other cultures. They are nationalistic. National - how do you say? Chauvinistic. It is another manifestation of a nihilist view. But the West has no pure Buddhist lineage because they don't respect sublime beings, and they don't believe in teachers.Whatever they do not understand deeply, then they reject, and they say, "This is useless". The problem is how pure Buddhist teachings can flourish in the west.
...
I cannot say, neither they are or are not because I am not a sublime teacher. But main problem is that almost all Western teachers of Buddhism are nihilists.

This is what I do not accept. I know many Americans, the vast majority of them are not arrogant and do not think they are better than anyone else.

If nationalism is a fault, it applies to all -- including, and especially Tibetans.

The western Buddhists I know respect sublime persons and they do beleive in teachers.

If we are not understanding some teaching deeply, that is the fualt of the teachers. But the way many Tibetans want it, is that one should have total faith before receiving teachings. This will not work in the West. And this was also not Buddha's intention.

So I find myself in disagreement with this point of view.

I also do not accept the blanket condemnation that almost all Western teachers of Buddhism are nihilists.

N

[heart]

But Namdrol, the so called "American Buddhists" are arrogant and think they know the Dharma better than the Tibetans and this interview was directed at them. Also the whole world consider the Americans more arrogant than any other country in the world in political matters. TNR lived in the US a great part of his life, he had some very devoted disciples, I think it seems like he was pretty fond of America and Americans, no?

/magnus

[Malcolm]

But Namdrol, the so called "American Buddhists" are arrogant and think they know the Dharma better than the Tibetans and this interview was directed at them.

Really? Who are these so called "American Buddhists"?

Also the whole world consider the Americans more arrogant than any other country in the world in political matters.
/magnus

Don't confuse the actions of a small corporate controlled faction controlling our government with the American people. Thanks.

N

[MalaBeads]

"If mind is not used to create wisdom, strong dualistic ego obsessively rejects and accepts, causing hatred toward others who are different and attachment to one’s own way, which is the basis of sectarianism.
Of course, it is good to have loyalty and faith in one’s own tradition, but only without devaluing and having hatred toward other traditions that are suitable for those with different phenomena.”
- Dungsé Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, White Sail

[gad rgyangs]

im sure there was grumbling among the indians when buddhism was getting transmitted to tibet: "you expect us to teach buddhadharma to these superstitious barbarians??"

not to mention the gargantuan amounts of gold that the indians extorted from the tibetans before they would give teachings.

[Dechen Norbu]

I tell you even more. To some Tibetan "teachers", and unfortunately they are not so few, Westerners are little more than cows lining up to be milked so that they rebuild their monasteries for Tibetans in Tibet, India or Nepal. This is not a secret, for goodness sake. It's also becoming less common as more and more Westerners are waking up to this reality and choose teachers more carefully these days. The Buddhism fad seems to have passed and now many Western students are much more cautions than they were a few decades back. The mesmerizing effect of a set of robes and Tibetan looks seems to be fading. That is not surprising if we take notice of the numerous episodes of deception that happened already. Coming to the West to finance their projects and then disappearing never to be seen again, or just very rarely, while leaving a bunch of deeply hurt students was common practice, sadly. No wonder people are more careful now.

Just curious, but what kind of disciples is it that expect that the teacher shall continuously appear in their own backyard? How about go to meet him/her yourself? Or did you actually mean that the teacher couldn't be found anymore? Disrobed and changed his name and is now living in a nice bungalow with a sea view at some unknown address enjoying the disciples money?
In my personal experience there are not many Lamas that make so much money on teaching in the west, mainly because Western Dharma centers are high maintenance and that very few Westeners are very generous. My own Lama often give the whole donation back to the Dharma center. If you want only want to make money it is much easier in Taiwan or Malaysia where generosity is a natural part of laymen practice.
So, what exactly are you talking about here? There seem to be some personal bitterness.

/magnus

I had the good fortune of never meeting such situation myself. All the teachers I have and had are great beings in my opinion.
I'm used to travel more than one thousand km to get teachings. Few of my teachers visit Portugal. They visit Europe and that's good enough for me. Namkhai Norbu spends enough time in Spain and Italy. For me this is a great fortune. If you know a little about me by now, you should know I'm not expecting any teacher to drop in my backyard. I always had to travel a lot to get teachings and I don't mind the slightest. Sometimes it is just financially complicated.

I'm glad you never heard of cases as those I describe. Unfortunately I can't say the same. Teachers that come from Tibet, gather a few bucks and then disappear or stay away for years to the point of their students needing to find a different teacher. It's sad and it happens. As you say, perhaps they don't become rich, but euro or dollar (or previous central and north European currency) has great value in India, Nepal and Tibet.

So Magnus, I would appreciate if you could avoid speculation about my "personal bitterness". It's none of that. I provided a fair appreciation based on reliable information. Perhaps the mesmerizing effect I talked about previously didn't ware off as much as I thought after all.

[Adamantine]

"Because Americans are very arrogant and their capitalism’s-habit is to think they are very superior to everyone else. They don’t respect other races, and other cultures. They are nationalistic. National - how do you say? Chauvinistic. It is another manifestation of a nihilist view. But the West has no pure Buddhist lineage because they don't respect sublime beings, and they don't believe in teachers.Whatever they do not understand deeply, then they reject, and they say, "This is useless". The problem is how pure Buddhist teachings can flourish in the west.
...
I cannot say, neither they are or are not because I am not a sublime teacher.
This is what I do not accept. I know many Americans, the vast majority of them are not arrogant and do not think they are better than anyone else.

Well, I know many too, and when it comes to over-confidence in one's knowledge about the world, nature-of-reality, or spiritual experience/inclination-- I have to disagree with you and say the vast majority ARE arrogant. I mean, how could you not see this after years on Esangha? Also, he said the capitalism's-habit is to think they are superior, so he is clearly referring to a collective political-sentiment. In contrast to your statement:

Don't confuse the actions of a small corporate controlled faction controlling our government with the American people. Thanks.

We still collectively support this faction, until we don't. Right now, until it is overturned, the collective supports it. How could you argue anything other?

The western Buddhists I know respect sublime persons and they do beleive in teachers.

That is because you don't hang with the right crowds, I'd say...

If we are not understanding some teaching deeply, that is the fualt of the teachers

.

I don't agree, there are many instanced where the disciple may be at fault... being a broken vessel, a vessel turned upside down, a full vessel, etc. : you know this teaching.

But the way many Tibetans want it, is that one should have total faith before receiving teachings. This will not work in the West.

I don't believe this is true, however, since aside from large groups of over-zealous Christians we as a culture have collectively determined anything resembling "faith" as contaminated...based on Church politics in the last few centuries and the scientific materialism that was embraced in it's stead..So I think the response was meant to challenge this tendency..

I also do not accept the blanket condemnation that almost all Western teachers of Buddhism are nihilists.

It's not a blanket condemnation, he said almost all, and the interview took place in the 1990's, so maybe the scene has changed a bit but there's certainly still plenty to go around..

Really? Who are these so called "American Buddhists"?

Well, if you'd been following the trend in Tricycle and other Buddhist-zeitgeist media in the 90's you'll recall there was a whole so-called movement towards an "American-Buddhism", at least this was an ongoing theme and there were articles and interviews about it.. So he was responding to this. Let's not lose the context. Also, this was the time the Carreon's launched their web-rant "American Buddha" which is the most anti-Vajrayana thing on the web aside from the Trimondis. Context is everything.

[Adamantine]

Coming to the West to finance their projects and then disappearing never to be seen again, or just very rarely, while leaving a bunch of deeply hurt students was common practice, sadly. No wonder people are more careful now.

I have not had this experience, I've heard of some of this, but truly believe it is the exception, not the norm. It's just that people are very vocal about their negative experiences, and it drowns out all the quiet people who feel lucky and blessed by their connection to their teachers. This kind of manipulation is the norm of samsara, and we live in the degenerate age, so it is to be expected.. in any field. I can honestly think of more than a few questionable American teachers who milk their students dry off the top of my head, but only one Tibetan one comes to my mind...

[kirtu]

im sure there was grumbling among the indians when buddhism was getting transmitted to tibet: "you expect us to teach buddhadharma to these superstitious barbarians??"

Yes there was.

Kirt