words to the west

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words to the west

Postby muni » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:47 am

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Re: words to the west

Postby heart » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:11 am

muni wrote:http://www.american-buddha.com/words.west.htm


I would avoid making links to that site. The interview by Thinley Norbu is used to bring fear, doubt and uncertainty to practitioners on that site.

Use this site instead http://welcomingbuddhist.org/archives/124

/magnus
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Re: words to the west

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:30 am

muni wrote:http://www.american-buddha.com/words.west.htm


Interesting writing.

This is striking:
Another problem is that almost all Western teachers of Buddhism are either nihilists or eternalists, and not actual Buddhist lineage holders.


This may or may not be true depending on the tradition and locality.

I've heard before that some Tibetan lamas have expressed dismay about the spiritual faculties of students in the west. This is probably related to the prevailing reality-world views which are inherently materialistic and foster adharmic views, doubt and scepticism rather than right views, conviction and intellectual prowess.

My experience in Asia would definitely affirm what is being said here. With the exception of Japan, Buddhism in places like Taiwan, Nepal and India is like night and day compared to what you have in the west. At the most basic level people have faith in the Triple Gem and express concern about their future rebirths, but in the west a lot of self-identifying Buddhists don't really accept even the essentials of Buddhadharma like rebirth and karma, much less having genuine conviction that liberation is possible. If you don't think samsara actually happens or that our actions direct our future rebirths, then liberation in the Buddhist context might as well be a fictional fantasy.

What makes matters worse is you have publishers publishing "Buddhist teachers" who teach false dharma and only reinforce wrong views.
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Re: words to the west

Postby muni » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:31 pm

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Re: words to the west

Postby ngodrup » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:38 pm

A response: http://www.purifymind.com/LetterTharchin.htm

Dungse Rinpoche did not mince words in correcting the view of beings, eastern or western.
He loved his chosen country, the USA, and western Buddhists enough to point out our faults.
It would be a mistake to think that he refrained from scolding Asians for their shortcomings
in view or practice.
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Re: words to the west

Postby Adamantine » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:03 pm

Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?
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Re: words to the west

Postby heart » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:52 pm

Adamantine wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?


The link I provided is the whole thing.

/magnus
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Re: words to the west

Postby Adamantine » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:58 pm

heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?


The link I provided is the whole thing.

/magnus


That is not just the entire thing as it appeared in the published Tricycle magazine? Because I own that copy and believe it is about the same length.. I meant the entire interview, that was never published... because Tricycle heavily edited it. The full answers that TNR gave, not just what made it into print...

From Lama Tharchin's letter:
Having agreed to an interview, Rinpoche very generously and clearly answered Ms. Tworkov’s questions regarding a current movement among many Buddhist groups in America aimed at ‘diminishing the role of the teacher’ and reliance on the ‘collective wisdom of the sangha’. The interview was only partially published and heavily edited, demonstrating the weakness of our collective karma. I believe this caused confusion for many people. Through only having selected passages presented, many readers wrongly interpreted Rinpoche’s words and motivation, stirring strong reactions of judgment, confusion, and doubt.
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Re: words to the west

Postby heart » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:02 pm

Adamantine wrote:
heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?


The link I provided is the whole thing.

/magnus


That is not just the entire thing as it appeared in the published Tricycle magazine? Because I own that copy and believe it is about the same length.. I meant the entire interview, that was never published... because Tricycle heavily edited it. The full answers that TNR gave, not just what made it into print...


Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: words to the west

Postby Adamantine » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:05 pm

heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what. :smile:

/magnus


You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!
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Re: words to the west

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:10 pm

Adamantine wrote:
heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what. :smile:

/magnus


You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!


Tricycle later published a revised and expanded version of the interview that they claim was not altered. The second publication centered around HH Thinley Norbu's most controversial statement from the originally published interview. There was some more light shed but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.

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Re: words to the west

Postby heart » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:12 pm

Adamantine wrote:
heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what. :smile:

/magnus


You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!


Sure, they are all in for the "American" Buddhism, or Protestant Buddhism as I call it. They might have edited it a lot at Tricycle but the wisdom of Thinley Norbu Rinpoche outshine their attempt completely which is probably why you can't find it at their website anymore. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: words to the west

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:16 pm

kirtu wrote:...but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.

Kirt


A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.

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Re: words to the west

Postby heart » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:...but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.

Kirt


A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.

N


I think the point is that without realization you will always tend to fall towards nihilism or eternalism.

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Re: words to the west

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:29 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:...but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.

Kirt


A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.

N


I think the point is that without realization you will always tend to fall towards nihilism or eternalism.

/magnus



Then the comment should have been extended to cover almost all Buddhist teachers.
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Re: words to the west

Postby Adamantine » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:25 am

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.

N


I think the point is that without realization you will always tend to fall towards nihilism or eternalism.

/magnus



Then the comment should have been extended to cover almost all Buddhist teachers.




Well, considering who he is, he undoubtedly knew many realized Tibetan masters firsthand...a handful of course even his close relatives.. whereas he may only have ever met one or two Western ones.. I personally have met far more Tibetan masters I'd deem realized than I have Western ones... so perhaps a generalization, a pointed one-- but hardly an over-exaggeration. . . at least, from my POV.
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Re: words to the west

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:49 am

Adamantine wrote:
but hardly an over-exaggeration. . . at least, from my POV.


I am not a realized person, but I am neither and eternalist nor a nihilist.
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Re: words to the west

Postby Silent Bob » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:51 am

Adamantine wrote:
heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what. :smile:

/magnus


You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!


There was actually a mini-scandal over the way the editor, Helen Tworkov, had manipulated Norbu Rinpoche's responses in the published copy of the interview to reflect badly on him and on Vajrayana in general. Tricycle lost quite a few subscribers, including myself, over that little lapse of judgement and I believe the magazine printed a carefully worded not-quite-apology afterward.

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Re: words to the west

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:53 am

Silent Bob wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what. :smile:

/magnus


You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!


There was actually a mini-scandal over the way the editor, Helen Tworkov, had manipulated Norbu Rinpoche's responses in the published copy of the interview to reflect badly on him and on Vajrayana in general. Tricycle lost quite a few subscribers, including myself, over that little lapse of judgement and I believe the magazine printed a carefully worded not-quite-apology afterward.

Chris


Yup -- you see, Tworkov, so I understand, was a disgrunteled ex-student of TNR's who had defected to Zen.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: words to the west

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:39 am

That explains a lot.
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