Ahimsa, Veganism, and Existing Food/Supplements

[SittingSilent]

I am learning more about Buddhism, although I'm not sure which school I feel comfortable in. However, as I am learning more about the concept of ahimsa, I am feeling drawn to become a vegan, especially considering the horrific conditions other sentient beings are raised and then slaughtered under simply to provide food for us. I am not comfortable with this. My difficulty however, is with what I am supposed to do with the chicken and beef in my freezer, as well as the medications that are in capsules made with gelatin (animal-sourced), etc. I feel I shouldn't consume them because that would be contributing to all four negative intentions, but if I dispose of them, how is that any better?

Thoughts please!

E

[Adamantine]

I am learning more about Buddhism, although I'm not sure which school I feel comfortable in. However, as I am learning more about the concept of ahimsa, I am feeling drawn to become a vegan, especially considering the horrific conditions other sentient beings are raised and then slaughtered under simply to provide food for us. I am not comfortable with this. My difficulty however, is with what I am supposed to do with the chicken and beef in my freezer, as well as the medications that are in capsules made with gelatin (animal-sourced), etc. I feel I shouldn't consume them because that would be contributing to all four negative intentions, but if I dispose of them, how is that any better?

Thoughts please!

E

The Buddhist approach is generally more of a middle-path, recognizing that in samsara suffering pervades everything... and it is impossible to completely avoid unintentional harm even if it is possible to at least minimize it and to avoid intentional harm. So for Buddhist monks practicing at the time of Shakyamuni with full Bikshu vows meat-eating was allowed since they were begging for their food door-to-door, as long as it was certain that the meat was not from an animal killed for them specifically. So there would be no contribution to that animals death, and assuming the monks would not continually go back to the same house to get more meat-- there would not be a supply-demand chain contribution to the death of a future animal either. In Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddha's teachings are more strict about avoiding meat altogether-- but in Vajrayana Buddhism it again can be used in certain conditions with the right motivation and using skillful means that will benefit the animal in the long-run.

I am vegetarian myself, and share your ethics to the point I tried to be completely vegan twice before in my life-- eating a well-balanced vegan diet too-- but I got very sick both times I tried. Not everyone's constitution can handle a strictly vegan diet, and this is not just a cop-out, I know from experience. I may try again since bodies do change with time. So I am a reluctant lacto-ovo-vegetarian, and I try to restrict my dairy to the most 'humane' sources as much as possible. I also finally succumbed to taking fish oil capsules for Omega 3's after suffering from chronic joint pain. So I don't feel pure at all from an ahimsa perspective. But practicing Vajrayana Buddhism I at least have some practices I can do before ingesting these things that can help create a Dharma link to the animals and hopefully benefit them, more than if someone who cared less bought the same packages at the marketplace. If you already have meat and gelatin caps I don't see how throwing them out would help anybody. Just eat them, with awareness and compassion. And be very careful about your diet.. it is never healthy to make extreme transitions suddenly.. it is better to wean yourself onto a new diet, and you can use your leftover meats for this, eating smaller and smaller amounts for a week or two and finding adequate replacements for protein and fats..

Best Wishes!

[ronnewmexico]

There is no pure thing, we kill to live always. I agree it causes less harm to be vegan but to sweat the little stuff to my experience this thing could very soon become quite tedius.

It is a question of one.What do you want to do really.
My choice may not be yours. The meat...I would give to friends who would eat meat anyway, expressing with them the reason why you are giving the meat away as it expresses something to be doing so and...they will know it is perhaps not spoiled meat you are foisting on them. And you will be able to discontinue the meat habit quicker and with more ease.

The medications....as I am of little means and the geletin is such a small part, and they are so expensive...I would probably use them up and then when buying get them vegan....they are available most everywhere differing things. Not all are advertised as such but if a ingredient label is available you can look at it, write down the ingredients, and see for yourself by researching it if they are. If one has to have a medication and the only thing available is a animal product...your life healthy, is more important than the harm to be opinion. This life is preciious for purpose.

I still have for instance a leather jacket that was given to me 20 or so years ago(says something about the state of my wardrobe I'd guess )....but as there are substitutes for leather that look just like this and no one can tell what it is for sure, and it was a gift and I am so cheap and not rich....I will still wear it on occasion

So it is individual the choice and how you do it. I still eat honey, hardly much at all, but I do, as I researched it, found it not to cause harm with cultivation(actually perhaps the opposite)
so technically I am not a vegan. But actually it seems I am mostly.
But I don't sweat the little things is why I have been for so long 20 plus years. I am cheating that is why it is so easy, someone may respond....technically by PETA standards, yes, on a harm basis I think not, mostly not, less harm always.
PETA I hold membership in at times for purpose but I don't believe in not useing animals for things,like carriage riding. just not eating them, or perhaps useing their hides hoofs(gelatine) or such I will not now purchase a leather jacket for instance, or consume geletin, that is eating.

That is my opinion,but you must make your own..

Always you will make some small mistakes. I find animal in the most unlikely of places at times, chips a couple of times for instance...so found I give it away. Not a harm issue but a habit issue really. Consuming such becomes the habit of doing such and then one is inclinded to go back. So I have always given away things purchased inadvertantly.

The small.... as in geletin it is so small really it is the habit of animal we are devolving not so much with the individual items. But they do add up eventually eating no animal...you do really cause much less harm.

So others may be glad i am vegan as well..they get free stuff occasionally.

Unsolicited certainly...but I find hemp seed oll a good substitute for fish oil. Flax is cheaper but has not the most beneficial fat composite to my opinion.

To reinforce that above good advice given..there is no pure diet. Animals are killed in all harvests to include grain and fruit. Even organic.
I can construct to every extent I opine the exact meat eaters diet as my choice of hobby sport and prior profession has necessitated I be able to do so.
And I have had 20 years to work at this, and though a slow read when I am interested I am a very thorough read .

[LastLegend]

Mail your meats to me.

[Seishin]

In my honest opinion, as you've already purchased those items, you have already contributed to their suffering. So consuming them now won't change anything. It'll just be a waste not to.

Gassho.

[SittingSilent]

Mail your meats to me.

I think there might be some issues regarding food safety by mailing frozen meat through the postal service. I don't think one is allowed to mail perishable foods like that. Sorry.

In my honest opinion, as you've already purchased those items, you have already contributed to their suffering. So consuming them now won't change anything. It'll just be a waste not to.

I realize this, and I feel badly about it. However, I feel such compassion after seeing images and reading about how these beings are brutalized just so we can eat that I simply can't bring myself to put that in my mouth. It feels to me like validating the purchase on a whole other level, even if it has no meaning officially it still means something to me personally.

[Adamantine]

I realize this, and I feel badly about it. However, I feel such compassion after seeing images and reading about how these beings are brutalized just so we can eat that I simply can't bring myself to put that in my mouth. It feels to me like validating the purchase on a whole other level, even if it has no meaning officially it still means something to me personally.

In that case I suggest you bury them with that same sentiment, the same way you would a beloved pet or relative, knowing these animals were undoubtedly dear loved ones in a prior life. Make aspiration prayers for their rebirth in positive circumstances where they will encounter the Dharma and eventually find freedom from suffering, and recite the 6-syllable mantra that closes the door to lower rebirths dedicated to them: Om Mani Padme Hung - many times.

However, as a vegetarian for many years I must tell you that it is quite difficult to avoid all circumstances of contributing to this type of suffering: every time you buy food at a non-vegetarian restaurant or supermarket you are contributing to their bottom-line which gets recycled into ordering excess amounts of meats that inevitably get thrown in the garbage, etc. So be realistic about your situation-- it is really almost impossible to live in the modern world without indirectly supporting this system.. while it is noble to avoid it as much as possible, it is also very important to simply meditate on compassion, do your Dharma practice and dedicate the merits to all suffering beings-- including the ones who are unseen-- who inhabit other realms that are even more intense suffering then you've witnessed at factory farms. The 6 realms are pervaded by suffering, realizing this is the starting point of true compassion born of equanimity, and creates the possibility of generating equal compassion for the workers at these factory farms and the slaughterhouses and the butchers who will surely suffer the effects of their actions-born-of-ignorance in short time.

[Konchog1]

I am learning more about Buddhism, although I'm not sure which school I feel comfortable in. However, as I am learning more about the concept of ahimsa, I am feeling drawn to become a vegan, especially considering the horrific conditions other sentient beings are raised and then slaughtered under simply to provide food for us. I am not comfortable with this. My difficulty however, is with what I am supposed to do with the chicken and beef in my freezer, as well as the medications that are in capsules made with gelatin (animal-sourced), etc. I feel I shouldn't consume them because that would be contributing to all four negative intentions, but if I dispose of them, how is that any better?

Thoughts please!

E

As I understand it, Ahimsa is more important in some sects of Hinduism and Jainism (whose version Gandhi followed) then in any sect of Buddhism.

Being vegetarian is nice, but are you doing it because it causes animals to suffer? Or because it's part of "the lifestyle" of being a Buddhist? There is overlap but also big differences. Personally, I feel it is acceptable to secretly cook and eat a dead bird you find while walking in a forest. Do you see?

[Thug4lyfe]

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[ronnewmexico]

The problem is again the habit. If one is trying to break a habit to digress from the pattern of other even if one has a good cause(not wasting things)....it is a cause for repeating the habit.

Habit is a powerful issue. EAting diet is all about habit, what we were taught to eat how and when.
Once indulgeing this habit again one finds oneself doing such again then will come the rationals to continue to do this.

So my strong advice....if you want to do this, don't deviate from it...it is to easy to slip back,the rationalizations will follow, but the bottom line will be one is no longer doing what one wanted to do....not eat this thing.

You will occasionally eat meat by other cause. SERved chicken in a restaurant one time as vegetarian....these incidents will happen. They do not however incite habitual formation. The choosing to do so for whatever reason is most powerful for that.
That is my advice I have no problem following this for 20 plus years. I can't count how many decide to and then slip back. So be careful on considering this carefully before doing it, but when decided do it. Otherwise a habit of decideing then breaking that decision is formed which may be a untoward kind of thing to form. Very negative.

[KeithBC]

I am learning more about Buddhism, although I'm not sure which school I feel comfortable in. However, as I am learning more about the concept of ahimsa, I am feeling drawn to become a vegan, especially considering the horrific conditions other sentient beings are raised and then slaughtered under simply to provide food for us. I am not comfortable with this. My difficulty however, is with what I am supposed to do with the chicken and beef in my freezer, as well as the medications that are in capsules made with gelatin (animal-sourced), etc. I feel I shouldn't consume them because that would be contributing to all four negative intentions, but if I dispose of them, how is that any better?

Thoughts please!

E

Congratulations on your leanings towards veganism. Surprisingly, you will find as much opposition to your view among Buddhists as among non-Buddhists. Personally, while conceding that veganism is not a requirement for Buddhists, I think it is an exceptionally good way of putting Buddhist values into practice.

There is nothing you can do with non-vegan products that you already have that will help the sentient beings that they came from. You have to accept the discomfort you now feel about it as your karma from your past actions. C'est la vie. Two alternatives are often suggested for new vegans: either use them up until they are gone, without replacing them, or else donate them to a food bank or thrift store (depending on the nature of the product). Throwing them in the gargabe is not suggested as a good option, because it is wasteful. Using up or donating the items at least means that they will provide some benefit to someone without being wasted. Which alternative appeals to you is very much a personal decision.

Some items cannot be donated. If you feel you can not use them, then the only alternative is to garbage them. It is wasteful, but that is simply your past karma catching up with you. Let it go.

Om mani padme hum
Keith

[daelm]

I am learning more about Buddhism, although I'm not sure which school I feel comfortable in. However, as I am learning more about the concept of ahimsa, I am feeling drawn to become a vegan, especially considering the horrific conditions other sentient beings are raised and then slaughtered under simply to provide food for us. I am not comfortable with this. My difficulty however, is with what I am supposed to do with the chicken and beef in my freezer, as well as the medications that are in capsules made with gelatin (animal-sourced), etc. I feel I shouldn't consume them because that would be contributing to all four negative intentions, but if I dispose of them, how is that any better?

Thoughts please!

E

take the medication. give the food away.

d

[SittingSilent]

I donated a great deal of foodstuffs that contained animal products to my local community kitchen. I gradually am using up the others, and will continue to use my wearables until they give out. I will accept the realistic nature of nonperfectionist life as a vegan by eating dairy and eggs in the hospital and taking certain medications with gelatin in them should the manufacturer not offer alternatives.

Being vegetarian is nice, but are you doing it because it causes animals to suffer? Or because it's part of "the lifestyle" of being a Buddhist? There is overlap but also big differences. Personally, I feel it is acceptable to secretly cook and eat a dead bird you find while walking in a forest. Do you see?

I find this an interesting viewpoint. Myself, I would say I am becoming more veg leaning because of my evolving knowledge of Buddhism. I don't think I am trying for lifestyle Buddhism. In fact, I was told, by someone I cannot identify in my memory now, that many Buddhists are not vegetarians, perhaps to include the Dalai Lama. Am I mistaken? My memory hasn't been the best lately. Anyway, I just feel I am doing the right thing, regardless of what other Buddhists choose to do.

[Blue Garuda]

Well done for spotting that medicines contain animal products. I've tried to persuade the UK Govt to put the 'V' on the packs of medicines suitable for Vegetarians and Vegans but they claim the European Law prevents this; so I said change the law so people know what they are consuming!

Few people know of the Gelatin in capsules and even fewer know that it is also in some tablets.

Even pharmacists have little idea and tell you that different brands of tablets are the same becuase the 'active ingredients' are the same, but close reading shows the 'excipients' (non-active ingredients) may well include gelatin, cochineal etc.

So, remove the medicine from the capsules if possible or hand them back to the pharmacist.

As for the meat, your purchase has already caused marketing folk to plan more killing because of predicted demand, so I'm not sure that it matter what you do in terms of that karma as the action has completed. However, positive karma may include giving it to a carnivore whose unfortunate rebirth means they must live off meat, and in that way you save them from needing to kill.