Yidam and Dzogchen

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Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby wisdomfire » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:04 am

Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:33 am

:namaste:
You can the best direct your questions to your teacher-Lama. He/she will give you the needful information and guidance according your condition.

EDIT: FOR THE CLARITY OF ALL PRECIOUS BEINGS: THERE IS NO ANY YIDAM TO ADD IN DZOGCHEN. DZOGCHEN IS NOT LIKE TANTRA. IN CASE OF DOUBT AND LACK OF TEACHER TO ASK, PLEASE LOOK FOR NAMKHAY NORBU RINPOCHE LA HIS WORDS ABOUT.

Having all in my very heart,

muni
Last edited by muni on Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby haydenlaw » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:46 pm

Just to emphasize what Muni said - you follow your teacher's direct guidance/instructions to you.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:03 am

Greetings,

Wisdomfire didn't mention anything of his/her current situation... so for all we know he/she might actually be in search of a teacher and simply trying to find out what is the normative position on this matter, so that when he/she comes across a potential teacher, he/she might be able to ascertain whether such a potential teacher is legitimate or suitable to his/her requirements.

I fear a blanket "ask your guru" approach makes a spiritual aspirant more susceptible to uncritical submission to a potential cult. In the realm of the esoteric it is easy for liars and the unscrupulous to hide. Wisdomfire may be wisely conducting some "due diligence" for all we know.

Is this concern misplaced? :shrug:

Wisdomfire... do you wish to share with us a little more about the reason for your enquiry?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:13 am

General information can be found but this is not clearly explaining what one need as method to remain wakeful in non duality; one yidam, more.

It is completely dependent from the individual who has deep devotion and meets a qualified Lama. He, she will in accordance with what is needful, introduce to "open" beyond words or fabrications. Then one need to see from it's own in daily life and remain.

Dzogchen: Lama = Student.
Last edited by muni on Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:39 am

Thank you, muni.

:namaste:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Luke » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:28 am

Since very few very people are commenting, I thought I'd add the tiny bit that I can.

I've heard people talk several times about doing standard tantric meditations "from the Dzogchen perspective"--whatever that means.

When I happened to sit in on that one Dzogchen teaching, the lama said, "This is a completion stage practice which is done from the Dzogchen perspective." There were lots of visualizations, lots of mudras, and lots of pauses to meditate on sound syllables.

The main difference I saw between this and other tantric teachings which I've attended was that instead of a picture of a deity hanging up behind the lama, there was a picture of a tibetan syllable surrounded by rainbow colors instead.

Wisdomfire, you could also try emailing a Nyingma lama. Many lamas are very kind and might actually reply to you. I once emailed a Nyingma lama and got a very kind response back from him.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:38 am

Deity-yoga is at the heart of Mantrayana. Depending on the level one practises different styles of yidam practice is applied. In case of Atiyoga level we could say that the nature of mind becomes the deity. Consulting with one's teacher is for clarifying your personal needs. For general instructions there are many sources one can go for, from live teachings to tantras. Here's one for you:

Lady Tsogyal asks, Guru Rinpoche answers
("The Vajra Master & the Yidam Deity" in Dzogchen Essentials: The Path That Clarifies Confusion)

Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?

It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, and you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all these qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will be just an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity, you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

...

If one's view is high, is it permissible to dispense with the yidam deity?

If you attain confidence in the correct view, then that itself is the yidam deity. Do not regard the yidam deity as a form body. Once you realize the nature of dharmakaya, you will have accomplished the yidam deity.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:29 pm

Maybe I add Dzogchen is not by the ordinary mind but Rigpa.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav ... 89411.html
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:03 pm

wisdomfire wrote:Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:


If you follow any of the famous Nyingma Dzogchen cycles like the Longchen Nyingthig you will for sure practice a lot of Yidam. It is the standard approach and there is many good reasons for this according to my understanding.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Paul » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:44 am

From http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Yidam

On one occasion, I asked Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, “Is it necessary for someone with realization to recite prayers and mantras?” And he replied, “Someone who has that kind of realisation is like space. What harm could recitation possibly do to space?”And he continued, “To recite even a single mani mantra, or to recite the Vajra Guru mantra a few times, is only going to help. It’s not going to hurt, is it?”
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:59 pm

Hayagriva wrote:From http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Yidam

On one occasion, I asked Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, “Is it necessary for someone with realization to recite prayers and mantras?” And he replied, “Someone who has that kind of realisation is like space. What harm could recitation possibly do to space?”And he continued, “To recite even a single mani mantra, or to recite the Vajra Guru mantra a few times, is only going to help. It’s not going to hurt, is it?”


I am happy that you reached realization, but for the rest of us I think this is the right quote;

But nowadays there are people who say, “Oh, what a lot of bother! Deities and mantra, I hate all that. I’m just going to meditate.” And they sit there, and close their eyes, and that’s what they call practice. They say, “I just want to do effortless meditation.” But as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said, “Although there are people like that, I’ve not seen them gaining any sign of attainment.”


/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:39 pm

I guess both sides of delusion are covered!
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:17 pm

wisdomfire wrote:Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:


Certainly the details of yidam practice which the OP mentioned (ie. how many yidams, dakinis, protectors and so forth to take on) are best addressed by a qualified teacher. But the question of current trends in Dzogchen have been nicely addressed without delving into teacher-territory. Thanks to all the posters who replied, as this is an interesting topic.

If wisdomfire is in search of a teacher and a practice, I hope that s/he finds both. And if we can be of any help in finding a dharma center in his/her area, we could try to help.

Kind wishes,
Laura
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:27 pm

The Yidam is Dzogchen.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby muni » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:06 am

:bow: Deity pure perception to counteract delusion by ordinary perception, and Guru Yoga are "special preliminaries".

First there are the "general preliminaries" (by human life; impermanence, shortcomings of "samsara"). Those are having great importance and by that not something to do quickly and then rush toward higher mountains. As for that we need good shoes.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:52 pm

wisdomfire wrote:Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:


Dzogchen sees others yana as provisory.
Garab Dorje says : "Dzogpa Chenpo is the fortress of view, its Paths and stages are completed instantly. It is not comparable to the lower yanas.

From the Kunched Gyalpo tantra it is said ...

...
In Mahayoga, intending to attain the Vajradhara state and
Having entered the door of skillful means and wisdom,
In the pure mandala of one's own mind-stream,
One trains ine the fourfold "recitation-and-sadhana."
Whereas the great bliss of Atiyoga
Is the enlightened mind, free from efforts and acquirements.
The view with efforts and acquirements in Dzogpa Chenpo
Is a diversion to Mahayoga.
In Anuyoga
...
If one views things as cause and result in Dzogpa Chenpo,
It is a diversion to Anuyoga.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Paul » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:54 pm

heart wrote:I am happy that you reached realization, but for the rest of us I think this is the right quote;


I copied the wrong part.

Nangwa wrote:The Yidam is Dzogchen.


Something I read yesterday about this, written by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
The main purpose for practising the various manifestations of the Sambogakaya is to obtain complete realisation. You must not forget this! For example, when some people think of Vajrapani, Hayagriva, Garuda, Guru Tragphur, or Simhamukha they immediately ask, "What is Simhamukha for?" "What is Vajrapani for?" People believe these manifestations are only an antidote for certain problems. That is a wrong view, because the main thing is oractising for total realisation.

Gradual transformation has as its final goal Mahamudra. If we are aware of that principle, we can have total realisation.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:20 pm

Sönam wrote:
wisdomfire wrote:Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:


Dzogchen sees others yana as provisory.
Garab Dorje says : "Dzogpa Chenpo is the fortress of view, its Paths and stages are completed instantly. It is not comparable to the lower yanas.

From the Kunched Gyalpo tantra it is said ...

...
In Mahayoga, intending to attain the Vajradhara state and
Having entered the door of skillful means and wisdom,
In the pure mandala of one's own mind-stream,
One trains ine the fourfold "recitation-and-sadhana."
Whereas the great bliss of Atiyoga
Is the enlightened mind, free from efforts and acquirements.
The view with efforts and acquirements in Dzogpa Chenpo
Is a diversion to Mahayoga.
In Anuyoga
...
If one views things as cause and result in Dzogpa Chenpo,
It is a diversion to Anuyoga.

Sönam



Well Sönam in the 17 tantras of the Instruction section there is yidam practice. There is also things like prostrations, mandala offerings, guru yoga and so on I been told. How do you explain that if it is your opinion that yidam practice belong to the lower yanas?
Also it always been obvious, to me at least, that the Kunjed Gyalpo teaches in a way that can only be understood fully by very seasoned mahayoga practioners.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:58 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:
wisdomfire wrote:Can someone comment abit about the relationship between practising yidams and dzogchen? What is the common trend now? Do we need to practise yidam in order to practise dzogchen and how many yidams, dakinis and protectors do we need?

any related comments or experiences in this area thanks!
:namaste:


Dzogchen sees others yana as provisory.
Garab Dorje says : "Dzogpa Chenpo is the fortress of view, its Paths and stages are completed instantly. It is not comparable to the lower yanas.

From the Kunched Gyalpo tantra it is said ...

...
In Mahayoga, intending to attain the Vajradhara state and
Having entered the door of skillful means and wisdom,
In the pure mandala of one's own mind-stream,
One trains ine the fourfold "recitation-and-sadhana."
Whereas the great bliss of Atiyoga
Is the enlightened mind, free from efforts and acquirements.
The view with efforts and acquirements in Dzogpa Chenpo
Is a diversion to Mahayoga.
In Anuyoga
...
If one views things as cause and result in Dzogpa Chenpo,
It is a diversion to Anuyoga.

Sönam



Well Sönam in the 17 tantras of the Instruction section there is yidam practice. There is also things like prostrations, mandala offerings, guru yoga and so on I been told. How do you explain that if it is your opinion that yidam practice belong to the lower yanas?
Also it always been obvious, to me at least, that the Kunjed Gyalpo teaches in a way that can only be understood fully by very seasoned mahayoga practioners.

/magnus


Hello magnus,

It's not my own opinion, as I comment it, you can found all those references in the "Practice of Dzogchen" by Longchen Rabjam.

But my opinion is that it seems quite evident ...

Dzogchen is the path and the fruit at the same time.
The nature of the Basis is, primordially pure essence (Ngo-Bo), Spontaneously accomplished nature (Rang bZhin), and omnipresent compassion (Thugs-rJe). Compassion arises from the basis with the "eight modes of arising of spontaneous accomplishments" (Lhun-Grub Kyi 'Ch'ar-Tshul brGyad) ... if one realize them, when they arise, to be self-appearances, it is Dzogchen.
If one sees them as other than self-appearances then it becomes Ma-Rig-Pa ... therefore one start practicing ngöndro, and so on.

Therefore Dzogchen is Rigpa and is without any other needs ... other is Ma-Rigpa and needs ngöndro and deities practices.

ANd I do not agree with the relation you made between the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra and mahayoga.

Kunjed Gyalpo is from the Semde Division, and as Gyurmed Tshewang Chogtrub explains it clearly :
"The theory of Semde transcends all the various levels of yanas, two truths, six perfections and two stages, all the composed and contamined aspects of the 'truth of path' which are bound with the rigid concept of apprehending ..."

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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