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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:26 am 
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sangyey wrote:
I venture, from the point of veiw of ultimate reality there never was such a thing as ignorance. From a conventional point of veiw I think that is how things have always been for us. Perhaps now is the time to do something better for ourselves with help from our teachers :buddha1:

I posit that being in the natural state of clear light nature in the beggining and then jumping into ignorance is not what happened :shrug:


:good: because to locate the ignorance (for example "out there") is the very ignorance itself.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:40 am 
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Center Channel wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
In Dzogchen it is said that rigpa/vidya and marigpa/avidya are simultaneously, spontaneously and primordially arisen "like gold and its oxide".



First off, he's clearly not asking about Dzogchen.

Secondly, if rigpa (knowledge) was "spontaneously and primordially arisen", then you would not need direct introduction.

Christians, Muslims, Mormons and everyone else would spontaneously awaken to their own nature. :lol:

the realization there never was such a thing as "seems to be" ignorance in the first place = the "self-liberation" beyond all reference points such Jehowa, Allah... but spontaneous and primordially arisen.
Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche from http://dpr.info/art.poetry.heaven.htm:

Heaven
So blue is the ocean,
Infinite is the mind.
So bright are the heavens,
Luminous is the mind.

Expanse of heaven
Meets with deep blue ocean.
Union at horizon
Takes me beyond breath.

Heaven is bullshit.
And hell the religion of fear.
Man needs no God
Freedom is innate.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:47 am 
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Aemilius wrote:
In Madhyamaka ignorance has no independent existence, there is no ignorance before there is samskara (mental formations), it is similar to that there is no father before he has a son (or daughter).


Do you mean there is a mutual dependence of ignorance and mental formations?

Spniy


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:08 pm 
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Spiny Norman wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
In Madhyamaka ignorance has no independent existence, there is no ignorance before there is samskara (mental formations), it is similar to that there is no father before he has a son (or daughter).


Do you mean there is a mutual dependence of ignorance and mental formations?

Spniy


It is actually a straight borrowing from Nagarjuna's Shunyatasaptati (Seventy verses on emptiness) or Yuktishastika (Sixty verses on reasoning), can't remember which one. It solves the problem quite nicely, I think, there is no father before there is a son/daughter, i.e. ignorance doesn't exist by itself.

The dilemma is met also in the Pali suttas, the famous intellectual nun Dhammadinna says something like that it would lead to an infinite regress, infinite chain of causes, if you start thinking thatway.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Here is a line from the Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta

"And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:35 am 
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You can't find the expression "infinite regress" in this new translation of nun Dhammadinna's discourse, I think it is in the older one, the point is towards the end when Visakha asks her what is there otherside of ignorance? The answer is very interesting.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

There is a good teaching about the first link Avidya in Alex Berzin's site, taken from the teachings of Mahayana panditas Vasubandhu, Asanga, Dharmakirti and others:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level2_lamrim/intermediate_scope/twelve_links_dependent_arising/twelve_links_01.html

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:27 am 
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kkrotu wrote:
as the title says i want to know what is the cause of Avidyā(ignorance)? as it is stated in the description of Saṅkhāra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankhara
ignorance is the cause of craving and craving is the cause of suffering.
So what is the cause of ignorance? If our true nature is buddha nature, how did we became ignorant? What caused the ignorance of truth ?


This is a big problem amongst zen buddhists, who place an emphasis on the doctrine of "original enlightenment"

As far as I have learned, I believe that consciousness is the cause of ignorance. But it also shares a causal relationship with awareness. There are bound to be other contributing factors in the development of ignorance, but i thought it was cool to theorize that consciousness may share a causal relationship with a pair of epistemological opposites.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Avidya and samskara play a mutually supportive role,
with vijnana right there too.

Try not to think of the links of pratityasamutpada as
a line or circle, it isn't that simple.

~~ Huifeng

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Huifeng wrote:
Avidya and samskara play a mutually supportive role,
with vijnana right there too.

Try not to think of the links of pratityasamutpada as
a line or circle, it isn't that simple.

~~ Huifeng


Well, it is that simple.

--> Affliction -->Action --> Suffering --> Affliction...etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
Avidya and samskara play a mutually supportive role,
with vijnana right there too.

Try not to think of the links of pratityasamutpada as
a line or circle, it isn't that simple.

~~ Huifeng


Well, it is that simple.

--> Affliction -->Action --> Suffering --> Affliction...etc.


Nothing is ever that simple.

If you can't understand how myopic that kind of schematic is...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:14 pm 
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kkrotu wrote:
This is interesting but how can samsara be beginningless and nibbana permanent since enlightenment would be the end of samsara and the beginning of nibbana(at least for the one becoming enlightened) . So if samsara has and end it must have a beginning and if nibbana has a beginning it must have an end.
It is confusing to you since you conceive of ignorance and enlightenment as being two distinctly exclusive things.

If mind is a coin then the bliss of Nirvana is 'heads" and the suffering of ignorance is "tails".
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Ignorance then is a necessary.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Why should ignorance avoid being empty of cause or origin like everything else? As the Heart Sutra & Master Hua put it:

Quote:
And no ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and death or ending of old age and death.

“No ending of ignorance” means that its basic nature is empty.
False activity, discrimination, followed by name and form;
The six entrances, contact, feeling, love, grasping, having;
Rebirth, old age and death are each that way too.
For thousands of miles the sky is clear, without a cloud or a shadow.
Still water fills a deep pool and reveals the light of the moon.
Like people who drink when thirsty perceive for themselves the hot from the cold,
Merely talking about food or helping things grow: the work is always wanting.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Necessary, unnecessary, both necessary and unnecessary, neither necessary nor unnecessary. Those are the four extremes regarding ignorance. The truth regarding ignorance?
Quote:
Existence is Nirvana -
indeed they can't be
considered apart;

one; lacking any nature -
to me they are
completely stainless.
Saraha
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:14 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Necessary, unnecessary, both necessary and unnecessary, neither necessary nor unnecessary. Those are the four extremes regarding ignorance. The truth regarding ignorance?
Quote:
Existence is Nirvana -
indeed they can't be
considered apart;

one; lacking any nature -
to me they are
completely stainless.
Saraha
:namaste:


Sounds good.

What is ignorance then?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:55 am 
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Avidya could also be translated as innocence, it is the same word.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Aemilius wrote:
Avidya could also be translated as innocence, it is the same word.


I've never seen the Sanskrit translation of avidya as "innocence"

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Aemilius wrote:
Avidya could also be translated as innocence, it is the same word.


Huh? Vidya = Knowledge. A-vidya is literally 'unknowing'.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
Sounds good.

What is ignorance then?
Check ouy swampflowers answer here viewtopic.php?f=77&t=6270&start=20#p74520 OR one can simply say that gnorance is a lack of the realisation of the true (dependently existing) nature of smasaric existence.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Anders Honore wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Avidya could also be translated as innocence, it is the same word.


Huh? Vidya = Knowledge. A-vidya is literally 'unknowing'.


I think "innocence" captures the meaning quite well, thinking about the Devas in the beginning of the kalpa or the world cycyle, they don't know what it is before them? They taste it out of curiosity, they are innocent of what is to follow.
"Ignorance" is a heavily loaded word in comparison, "lack of awareness" is more neutral.

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