Please don't make up stuff.deff wrote:you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused
Dzogchenpa by Accident?
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
student of Namkhai Norbu
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Hmmm..just guessing, perhaps the answer lies in this particular as to how one defines cause.
I have no dog in this pony show...just conjecturing a possible. Perhaps cause is being refered to in differing contexts.
Perhaps then it may be helpful to define cause in this context so all may be on the same page with it.
I have no dog in this pony show...just conjecturing a possible. Perhaps cause is being refered to in differing contexts.
Perhaps then it may be helpful to define cause in this context so all may be on the same page with it.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
oh sorry, maybe i misread and thought you said it when someone else did. so you do not think buddhahood is uncaused?Center Channel wrote:Please don't make up stuff.deff wrote:you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.Center Channel wrote:Namdrol wrote: Cessation is an absence of causes, by definition.
N
Thats sounds more like nihilism/annhiliationism than cessation.
emptiness is not an objectAnd you certainly can treat emptiness as an object and run it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses or similar.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Annhilationism is an absence of causes, by definition.Mr. G wrote: You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.
Mr. G wrote: emptiness is not an object
Of course emptiness is not a object.
But this fact has not stopped any of the Indo-Tibetan Madhyamikas from treating emptiness as an object and running it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses (or similar) to prove that emptiness is conditioned. This is part of Madhyamaka's charm.
P.S. I thought we were having a higher level Madhyamaka discussion than pointing out that emptiness is not a thing.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Annihiliationism is the view that when a person dies, the 'self' breaks up upon death.Center Channel wrote:Annhilationism is an absence of causes, by definition.Mr. G wrote: You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.
If you backpedal any further, you'll land on your back alwayson....I mean CC.Mr. G wrote: emptiness is not an object
Of course emptiness is not a object.
But this fact has not stopped any of the Indo-Tibetan Madhyamikas from treating emptiness as an object and running it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses (or similar) to prove that emptiness is conditioned. This is part of Madhyamaka's charm.
P.S. I thought we were having a higher level Madhyamaka discussion than pointing out that emptiness is not a thing.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Hmm, repeatedley repeating that emptiness has been analyzed by 7-point analysis as being conditioned is backpedaling?
I even PM'ed you the same thing 3 hours ago:
So that makes FOUR times now repeating the same goddamn thing.
Emptiness is conditioned. Period. Take your own advice:
I even PM'ed you the same thing 3 hours ago:
Center Channel wrote: Are you saying than in the Indo-Tibetan tradition, emptiness itself was never analyzed through a 7 point analyses or similar?
So that makes FOUR times now repeating the same goddamn thing.
Emptiness is conditioned. Period. Take your own advice:
Mr. G wrote:at least have the humility to admit when you're wrong.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
So emptiness is a thing?Center Channel wrote: Emptiness is conditioned. Period.
Kevin
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Wow. People. We're supposedly Vajra siblings, aren't we? Is there really a need to fight?
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Virgo wrote:So emptiness is a thing?Center Channel wrote: Emptiness is conditioned. Period.
Kevin
No its not a thing.
Jesus fracking christ.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
So how is it caused?Center Channel wrote:Virgo wrote:So emptiness is a thing?Center Channel wrote: Emptiness is conditioned. Period.
Kevin
No its not a thing.
Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
out of curiosity, what do you think the cause(s) of emptiness is/are?
and if emptiness is caused, then it itself is already empty (since it's dependently originated)
so what's the cause of emptiness's emptiness? this creates an infinite series of "emptinesses" as each would need to be caused and thus create another instance of already being empty...
you mention the analysis that's done to show emptiness is conditioned, would you mind sharing that here? i'd be curious to hear it
and if emptiness is caused, then it itself is already empty (since it's dependently originated)
so what's the cause of emptiness's emptiness? this creates an infinite series of "emptinesses" as each would need to be caused and thus create another instance of already being empty...
you mention the analysis that's done to show emptiness is conditioned, would you mind sharing that here? i'd be curious to hear it
Last edited by deff on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Virgo wrote: So how is it caused?
Kevin
Do a 7-point Prasangika analyses or similar.
Or look at one that has already been done in the past.
So that makes 5 times now repeating myself.
Emptiness is empty. Emptiness is not non-empty.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
yes, of course emptiness is empty - hence why it's emptiness
but by positing that emptiness is caused, you create an infinite regression, as anything caused is already empty, so you would have to explain how something can be empty (i.e. caused) prior to emtpiness itself "arising" (from the view that it's caused). emptiness cannot have a cause as emptiness is synonymous with causality.
but by positing that emptiness is caused, you create an infinite regression, as anything caused is already empty, so you would have to explain how something can be empty (i.e. caused) prior to emtpiness itself "arising" (from the view that it's caused). emptiness cannot have a cause as emptiness is synonymous with causality.
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Perhaps looking at the difference between gZhi and Kunzhi (Alaya, not necessarily Alaya-Vijnana/Kunzhi-Namshe), could help to clarify.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Lhug-Pa wrote:Perhaps looking at the difference between gZhi and Kunzhi (Alaya, not necessarily Alaya-Vijnana/Kunzhi-Namshe), could help to clarify.
I made it clear I am talking strictly about Madhyamaka.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Since this thread is about Dzogchen, then why not discuss this by looking at the teachings on Emptiness in relation to both Madhyamaka and Dzogchen.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
CC,
Namdrol corrected you already.
Let me state this clearly: you are confused about emptiness and DO and don't seem tho have even a shallow grasp of Madhyamka (unlike Namdrol who can be considered an expert about it).
Don't push your mistaken views upon others. This is meant as an informal warning.
Study harder and stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.
You would do better if you listened to those who try to correct your mistakes instead of being arrogant. It's you loss.
Namdrol corrected you already.
Let me state this clearly: you are confused about emptiness and DO and don't seem tho have even a shallow grasp of Madhyamka (unlike Namdrol who can be considered an expert about it).
Don't push your mistaken views upon others. This is meant as an informal warning.
Study harder and stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.
You would do better if you listened to those who try to correct your mistakes instead of being arrogant. It's you loss.
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Hi Dechen Norbu,Dechen Norbu wrote: stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.
If I am following you correctly, you are saying that emptiness in Buddhism is uncaused like Atman, Brahman in Hinduism?
Therefore emptiness is like the god of Buddhism, being uncaused as it were?
Last edited by Emptiness on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
I doubt you really had to go to all the trouble of making yet another account for such a weird post.Emptiness wrote:Hi Dechen Norbu,Dechen Norbu wrote: stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.
If I am following you correctly, you are saying that emptiness in Buddhism is uncaused like Atman, Brahman in Hinduism?
Therefore emptiness is like the god of Buddhism?
A great alternative way to use your time would have been to actually take the advice that has been given in this thread.
Hopefully it just gets shut down at this point.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa