Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:52 pm

kirtu wrote:So it's
If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner.
If you are attached to samsara, you do not have renunciation.
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhichitta.
If there is grasping, you do not have the View.



༈ ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན།
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན།
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན།
འཛིན་པ་འབྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན།


?

བདག་དོན་ = self-interest or self-benefit
རང་དོན = one's own purpose/benefit,concern for oneself, selfish reasons

Maybe variants as these appear to be flavors of self-interest.

Kirt



Hi the Tibetan you quoted here is the same as in the book.
The english as it appears exactly in the book is in my last post above. They use 'own purpose'.
To split hairs, isn't 'own self-interest' tautology?....
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:59 pm

So in HE Chogye Trichen's book it is:

If you are attached to this life, you are not a person of Dharma.
If you are attached to cyclic existence, you do not have renunciation.
If you are attached to your own purpose, you do not have bodhichitta.
If grasping arises, you do not have the View.


༈ ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན།
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན།
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན།
འཛིན་པ་འབྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན།

Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:02 pm

MrDistracted wrote:To split hairs, isn't 'own self-interest' tautology?....


I was about to say no but then realized you mean a rhetorical tautology so basically yes*.

Kirt

* how ironic - English is replete with such.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:06 pm

Hi
Yes.
Though in the book it's byung, not 'byung in the last line...ie no achung as a prefix.
:namaste:
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:10 pm

MrDistracted wrote:Hi
Yes.
Though in the book it's byung, not 'byung in the last line...ie no achung as a prefix.
:namaste:


So it's:

༈ ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན།
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན།
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན།
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན།

?

Thanks!

Kirt
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:15 pm

Yes, that's it exactly.

This has inspired me to relisten to my mp3 recording of DJKR teaching it, so thanks for that.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:21 pm

MrDistracted wrote:Yes, that's it exactly.

This has inspired me to relisten to my mp3 recording of DJKR teaching it, so thanks for that.


Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has mp3's of the teaching? Are they available?

Thanks!

Kirt
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:27 pm

From Kathmandu in 2009 and Seattle earlier this year:

http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/ ... poche.html
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:33 pm

kirtu wrote:བདག་དོན་ = self-interest or self-benefit
རང་དོན = one's own purpose/benefit,concern for oneself, selfish reasons


Tantular mentioned that these were recognized variants.

རང་དོན is pronounced rang-dön but how is བདག་དོན་ pronounced? dag-dön?

And in dön - is the ö essentially the German ö or is it actually an English o sound? I ask because my German is a near native variant and when I'm back in a German speaking country it quickly reasserts itself.

Thanks!

Kirt
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:43 pm

Namdrol and Tantular who have both been on this thread know a lot, lot more than me.

But until they come by this way again:

yes you are right about the pronunciation

It's not really an english 'o' sound, more like what you mentioned (although i don't speak German).
I think of it like almost 'dern' in this case....providing that is you pronounce 'dern' like me :smile:

Also the g, as in bdag, I think of more like halfway between a 'k' and 'g', if that makes sense.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:17 pm

MrDistracted wrote:It's not really an english 'o' sound, more like what you mentioned (although i don't speak German).
I think of it like almost 'dern' in this case....providing that is you pronounce 'dern' like me :smile:


Well ö in German is a kind of cross between o and u in English but has a deeper and somewhat longer sound (or it's like a deep o and u pronounced at the same time). There is no suggestion of an r in German in that sound and I can't think of a regional German dialect that might support a r inflection.

But it's not an English o? I can think of an English o/r combined sound actually.

Also the g, as in bdag, I think of more like halfway between a 'k' and 'g', if that makes sense.


So it's somewhat chopped?

Right now I can only catch about half of what Dzongsar Khyentse says in Tibetan when he says then zhenpa zhidrel in the Seattle mp3 teachings.

Kirt
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby MrDistracted » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:36 pm

Hi Namdrol and Tantular will have more knowledge of how to explain pronounciation....and indeed a better knowledge of how to pronounce.
I just have vague ideas cobbled together from various places.
I'm only going to confuse the issue.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:22 pm

Tsadra.org has a lojong text on the zhenpa zhidrel (of some 19 pages in my text editor) that seems to have been written by Sonam Tsemo (he is at least referenced in what appears to be the colophon along with praise of Padmasambhava):

[url=http://gdamsngagmdzod.tsadra.org/index.php/བློ་སྦྱོང་ཞེན་པ་བཞི་བྲལ་གྱི་སྐོར]Tibetan: ༄༅། །བློ་སྦྱོང་ཞེན་པ་བཞི་བྲལ་གྱི་སྐོར་བཞུགས་སོ༎ ༎[/url]*

However the first paragraph is the story of Sachen Kunga Nyinpo on retreat at 12 and seeing the vision of Manjushri, etc. So it looks like this could be a longer version of Drakpa Gyaltsen's lojong text.

Kirt

*that url doesn't appear to be actually valid as a static url so the content is probably dynamically generated, I did a Google search with ཞེན་པ་བཞི་བྲལ་ as the search term and the Tsadra.org link came up in the list.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:39 am

ཤོག་ལྷེ་༣༡༠བླ་མ་ས་སྐྱ་པ་ཆེན་པོ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གཉིས་བཞེས་པའི་ཚེ།

ཤོག་ལྷེ་༣༡༠བླ་མ་ས་སྐྱ་་པ་ཆེན་པོ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གཉིས་བཞེས་པའི་ཚེ།

.... Sakya ....

ཤོག་ལྷེ་༣༡༠བླ་མས་སྐྱ་་པ་ཆེན་པོ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གཉིས་བཞེས་པའི་ཚེ།

Folio 310.... Sakya ....

ཤོག་ལྷེ་༣༡༠བླ་མས་སྐྱ་པ་ཆེན་པོ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གཉིས་བཞེས་པའི་ཚེ

Folio 310.... Sakya Panchen.... age

ཤོག་ལྷེ་༣༡༠བླ་མས་སྐྱ་པ་ཆེན་པོ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གཉིས་བཞེས་པའི་ཚེ

Folio 310.... Great Sakyapa.... age

ཤོག་ལྷེ་༣༡༠བླ་མས་སྐྱ་པ་ཆེན་པོ་དགུང་ལོ་བཅུ་གཉིས་བཞེས་པའི་ཚེ

Folio 310.... Great Sakyapa the year twelve became?* age

བཞེས་པའི་ : པའི past tense particle : བཞེས reached the age

In the year that the Great Sakyapa turned 12 ....

I had thought that the marked sentence ends?

Kirt
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby tantular » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:49 am

The Tibetan ö is exactly like the High German one. In fact it's formed in a manner analogous to Germanic umlaut: a back vowel is transformed into the corresponding front vowel, or a front vowel moves closer to i, due to the influence of a following sound. In the case of Tibetan, these sounds are final -d, -s (which are always silent in standard Tibetan), -l (which is pronounced in some words, but not in others), & -n (pronounced normally).

As for g & k, in standard Tibetan (my name for what exiles in India/Nepal speak as a lingua franca amongst each other, not the same as Lhasa Tibetan or "Central" Tibetan), unlike English & other European languages, the main distinction isn't between voiced vs. unvoiced, but aspirated vs. unaspirated, & high vs. low tone. At the beginning of a word, ཀ་= unaspirated ​ཁ་=aspirated high tone ག་= aspirated low tone, slightly more voiced. Same with the ཅ་ཏ་པ་ series. At the end of a syllable, as in bdag, these distinctions don't matter, and as MrDistracted said it's "in between a k & g" (& in between a p & b).

'byung is future & present tense, byung past tense, so another insignificant variant. (different tenses are extremely common in different editions of the same text, because they're often homophones when someone recites it for a scribe to carve the woodblocks)

Loppön Sonam Tsemo's account of Sachen's vision ends at ས་མྰ་སྟ་མི་ཐི།, a misprint for Sanskrit samāptam iti "finished, end of quote". Jestün Dragpa Gyaltsen's instructions follow immediately after.

A shad doesn't have to mark the end of a sentence, it's often just the end of a phrase. In this case the "sentence" ends at མངོན་སུམ་དུ་གཟིགས་ཏེ།: "When Sachen was twelve ... he saw manifest before him." Of course the te, a lhag bcas (continuative) particle indicates that the thought is incomplete, and more's to come, so even this isn't a complete "sentence" in Tibetan. In fact the sentence is only grammatically complete at ངེས་ཤེས་ཁྱད་པར་ཅན་ཐོབ་པ་ཡིན་ནོ on line 4 "... he obtained extraordinary certitude."

To translate it as a single English sentence, showing how the phrases are linked in Tibetan:

When Lama Sakya Chenpo was 12 years old, because he had done a six month drubpa of Ārya Mañju, at one time he saw manifest before him in the center of a mass of light, on top of a jewelled throne, Lord Mañjughoṣa, orange in color, displaying the mudra of explaining the dharma, seated in bhadrāsana, surrounded by two bodhisattvas to his right and left; by investigating the meaning of what was said from the mouth of the central deity: "If you are attached to this life, you are not a practitioner of dharma, if you are attached to the three realms of existence, it is not renunciation, if you are attached to your own benefit, it is not bodhicitta, if grasping has arisen, it is not the view", he realized that all the practices of the 6 Transcendences were included in the mind training of the Zhenpa Zhidrel, and he attained an extraordinary certitude concerning all the teachings.

Clearly, just like English particle names aren't very useful for interpreting Tibetan, neither is English sentence structure. Learn to look for phrases and how they are linked, not sentences. Usually this is done with verbs + adverbial particles. This is a skill that comes with reading, not through studying grammar.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:18 pm

tantular wrote:Clearly, just like English particle names aren't very useful for interpreting Tibetan, neither is English sentence structure. Learn to look for phrases and how they are linked, not sentences. Usually this is done with verbs + adverbial particles. This is a skill that comes with reading, not through studying grammar.


Thank-you so much!

Are there any indications of phrase beginnings and endings or is this a matter of inducing a phrase maybe from embedded verbs or particles? Tibetan clearly doesn't use comma function symbols.

But I have to study grammar some to even figure out what I'm reading (and of course this is a very advanced text). I am beginning to work on sight reading. After prayers what texts should I work on? I was looking at Sonam and Ruth Rinchen's version of Atisha's Lamp for the Path last night and it has the Tibetan as well and thought that might be something to work through.

Are there verb lists? I thought Preston had a book or paper on this (or perhaps he had done some computational linguistics work related to verbs)? Snow Lion has a Tibetan Verb Lexicon by Hackett.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:55 pm

kirtu wrote:
I had thought that the marked sentence ends?

Kirt



No, they mark where one should take a breath when reading the text aloud.

N
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:
I had thought that the marked sentence ends?

Kirt



No, they mark where one should take a breath when reading the text aloud.


So text's were primarily composed for recitation?

Kirt
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:14 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:
I had thought that the marked sentence ends?

Kirt



No, they mark where one should take a breath when reading the text aloud.


So text's were primarily composed for recitation?

Kirt



No, but Tibetans, until recently, did not read silently.

N
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Re: Parting from the Four Attachments in Tibetan?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:16 pm

tantular wrote:The Tibetan ö is exactly like the High German one. ... In the case of Tibetan, these sounds are final -d, -s (which are always silent in standard Tibetan), -l (which is pronounced in some words, but not in others), & -n (pronounced normally).


Does
tib_o.jpeg
tib_o.jpeg (893 Bytes) Viewed 362 times
always result in ö then or are there exceptions?

Kirt
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