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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:56 pm 
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as the title says i want to know what is the cause of Avidyā(ignorance)? as it is stated in the description of Saṅkhāra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankhara
ignorance is the cause of craving and craving is the cause of suffering.
So what is the cause of ignorance? If our true nature is buddha nature, how did we became ignorant? What caused the ignorance of truth ?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:49 pm 
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I have heard it described as a sort of lonliness or feeling that what is is not enough.

It is a continual occurance that we must reaffirm this ignorance to my opinion. It will not continue without our actively pushing it.
But it presents most clearly after death..at some point in time we are left with, a decision to avert attach or accept. Though this is not a consciously thought thing, a decision is made.
Habitual inclination forms the decision so it is almost impossible to even recognize and then about impossible to change it.

Focusing on the aware aspect of things as opposed to the empty aspect of things I have heard it as being described.
Suchly is why our births take such solid forms.

There is not a initial for us...it is as we have always been. A linear progression to this as we were once pure and now impure and then to become again pure...I don't find that.
That this is uncovered to be found, does not imply it was once uncovered...it never was.
This is all my personal opinion.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:13 pm 
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In Dzogchen it is said that rigpa/vidya and marigpa/avidya are simultaneously, spontaneously and primordially arisen "like gold and its oxide".

"When the faults, the mode of karma and traces, arise as stains and are associated with its intrinsic awareness, it is called a being" (Longchenpa in tshig don mdzod)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:09 pm 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
In Dzogchen it is said that rigpa/vidya and marigpa/avidya are simultaneously, spontaneously and primordially arisen "like gold and its oxide".



First off, he's clearly not asking about Dzogchen.

Secondly, if rigpa (knowledge) was "spontaneously and primordially arisen", then you would not need direct introduction.

Christians, Muslims, Mormons and everyone else would spontaneously awaken to their own nature. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:50 am 
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:smile:

Quote:
as the title says i want to know what is the cause of Avidyā(ignorance)? as it is stated in the description of Saṅkhāra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankhara
ignorance is the cause of craving and craving is the cause of suffering.
So what is the cause of ignorance? If our true nature is buddha nature, how did we became ignorant? What caused the ignorance of truth ?

----------------------------------
I posted something like this before...so I'll post it again.
"Ignorance", as you call it, is an illusion or delusion of the mind.
Specifically it is an delusion of the Ego Mind
The Ego mind is that entity, a part of our mind or self, that controls our Ego, our "I" conciousness.
The Ego Mind says, "I am", "I want", "I need",.....and so on.
From the day we are born as sentient human beings the Ego Mind, our I, controls all our perceptions.
It is that Ego Mind that creates the delusion of "myself" and "others" as seperate independent entities.
And the Ego Mind is (because of that illusion of seperation) is inately selfish. It teaches us that "self", "I", "myself",and "mine" are desireable and are therefore "Good"...and the "others"..."they", "them", "others" are therefore "bad".
A qoute I once heard or read says something like this:
The purpose of all teaching is to overcome the illusion of our seperateness from other things.
That illusion/delusion of our seperate existance from other things is what you call ignorance.
That is why, if we have a inherent Buddha Nature, sentient human beings do not recognise it, but instead live in that ignorance...that illusion of seperateness generated by our inherently selfish Ego Mind.
If by study and practice a sentient being can overcome that illusion/delusion of seperateness generated by the Ego Mind...and awaken their inherent Buddha Nature...a new world opens up.
But don't believe me....give it a try yourself.
:smile:

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Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:03 am 
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kkrotu wrote:
So what is the cause of ignorance?

Not having been taught.

Kind regards


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:42 pm 
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No beginning to it so no cause.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Ryoto wrote:
No beginning to it so no cause.

Everything that has a beginning has an end so everything that has an end has a beginning.
If through enlightenment ignorance is permanently abandoned that means ignorance ends so it must also have a beginning.

Another reasoning for why ignorance should have a cause is that if it didn't then it would mean that it is unoriginated and without end. So that would make it permanent and there would be no escaping it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:46 pm 
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I venture, from the point of veiw of ultimate reality there never was such a thing as ignorance. From a conventional point of veiw I think that is how things have always been for us. Perhaps now is the time to do something better for ourselves with help from our teachers :buddha1:

I posit that being in the natural state of clear light nature in the beggining and then jumping into ignorance is not what happened :shrug:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Ignorance doesn't have a discernible root cause, since it is itself the root cause of beginningless samsara. It has supporting causes however, without which it isn't sustainable.

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"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:41 am 
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What Anders said.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Anders Honore wrote:
Ignorance doesn't have a discernible root cause, since it is itself the root cause of beginningless samsara..


This is interesting but how can samsara be beginningless and nibbana permanent since enlightenment would be the end of samsara and the beginning of nibbana(at least for the one becoming enlightened) . So if samsara has and end it must have a beginning and if nibbana has a beginning it must have an end.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:51 pm 
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From the Aspiration of Samantabadhra:

"All that appears and exists, all of samsara and nirvana,
Has one ground, two paths and two results.
It is the display of awareness and ignorance...

The ground of all is uncomposed,
An inexpressible, self-arisen expanse
Without the names "samsara" and "nirvana."
If it is known, buddhahood is attained.
Not knowing it, beings wander in samsara...

At first, for bewildered beings
Awareness did not arise on the ground.
That obscurity of unconsciousness
Is the cause of bewildered ignorance.
From that unconsciousness
Emerged terrified, blurry cognition.
Self - other and enmity were born from that.
Through the gradual intensification of habit
Sequential entry into samsara began.
The five poisonous kleshas developed.
The actions of the five poisons are unceasing.
Therefore, ... the ground of the confusion of beings
Is mindless ignorance...

The connate ignorance
Is a distracted, mindless cognition.
The labeling ignorance
Is holding self and other to be two.
The two ignorances, connate and labeling,
Are the ground of the confusion of all beings..."

:anjali:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Ignorance is not realising the empty, impermanent nature of mental formations, thus there is habituation that maintains ignorance. Avidya generates samskara, samskara generates vijnana, vijnana reinforces samskara, samskara reinforces avidya. Ignorance is not a thing that is created or not created by something, but a condition of being that is constantly maintained by habits, or we can say that being attached to habits is ignorance itself. There is no beginning as conditions come from former conditions and result in further conditions. This conditioning can be ended any moment by not creating it again. It is not simply a theory but our own mind and its functioning right now.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:30 pm 
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kkrotu wrote:
as the title says i want to know what is the cause of Avidyā(ignorance)? as it is stated in the description of Saṅkhāra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankhara
ignorance is the cause of craving and craving is the cause of suffering.
So what is the cause of ignorance? If our true nature is buddha nature, how did we became ignorant? What caused the ignorance of truth ?


As I understand it, ignorance is the default condition for samsara - there's no cause for ignorance, it's just the way things are. Relating this to dependent origination and the second Noble Truth, you could say that while ignorance persists, craving persists, and so suffering persists.

Spiny


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:48 pm 
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To put it a slightly different way, why would ignorance need a cause? Understanding is generated from ignorance by causes like study, contemplation and investigation, but ignorance itself seems to be merely the state that governs the world in the absence of those causes.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:25 pm 
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To add to the above post, ignorance is not a thing in itself but the lack of something, namely knowledge (jnana).

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Astus wrote:
To add to the above post, ignorance is not a thing in itself but the lack of something, namely knowledge (jnana).


Nah. Ignorance is a dharma. It is not so much a lack of knowledge as it is actively looking at things wrongly.

Things couldn't arise in dependence on ignorance if it weren't a dharma.

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"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:41 pm 
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Anders Honore wrote:
Nah. Ignorance is a dharma. It is not so much a lack of knowledge as it is actively looking at things wrongly.
Things couldn't arise in dependence on ignorance if it weren't a dharma.


Desirelessness (alobha), non-harmfulness (ahimsa), impermanence (anityata), space (akasa) and even suchness (tathata) are all dharmas. But "dharma" does not mean a "thing" but rather a category as used in abhidharma works, a mere linguistic term.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:37 am 
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In Madhyamaka ignorance has no independent existence, there is no ignorance before there is samskara (mental formations), it is similar to that there is no father before he has a son (or daughter).

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