commonalities and divergences between traditions...

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DGA
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby DGA » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:16 pm

Yes, the public incident in the Chogye order you cite is embarrassing. How does it relate to any of your claims on Vajrayana?

The other citations you give do not substantiate the specific claims you made before on contemporary practice, for instance on your misgivings regarding ganachakra (as it happens meat and booze are conventionally understood as antidotes to the superior attitude of constipated Brahmins, and therefore not at all metaphorical...), &c.

I said before, your use of evidence is weak. It is not at all clear how the evidence you cite is warranted in some cases, or authoritative or significant in others. Take the June Campbell situation you cited earlier, as though none of us would be familiar with it. Campbell's claims have been debated in detail on this board. What exactly are you trying to say about her claims on Kalu Rinpoche? For instance.

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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:55 pm

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:03 pm

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

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ronnewmexico
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:51 pm

As a matter of issue I can see the necessity for Bodhisattava commitment as means.

But...if bodhisattava is taken in a certain way to exculsion....

The teacher buddha was considered to be approached by a being called Mara, Some take this mara to be a representation of obstruction itself, others take this as real being.

Now if real being is endeavored, that being present at all times and in many shapes and forms, one being, whose chief responsibility it be, that none escape, and none change things....why then that doing?
The only explaination as I see it is the connection between us and other beings perhaps of another sort, which we don't naturally perceive.
If creatures do exist, that eat human emotion/faulted aware conception(preferred that), as we may eat food, must be those human, not allowed to escape rebirth, and for their sustainance must be the most amount of humans possible, in any place.

WEll why then would we suppose they eat us human, emotions/awareness....a being that had cause and concern with us human, that we never escape, how then that could not be its purpose. EAting of course in a aware sense, amounting to growing, that which is bigger, better, and perhaps with concieved eternal aspect. Such is the essential of eating a thing to maintain perceived, continuance.
So the way of things could be maintained only if that be the situation...humans are eaten....as means for concieved eternal sustance.
ONly then could such a thing as no excape be so so important to a being, like a mara, that any means be employed, that even one, did not do that,(escape), and that certainly one who did that, first they did not teach,and then, that their teacheings be corrupted as soon as possible, if one did escape and teach.

So if that is found.... any belief that holds to seeking a rebirth as human, more humans in any fashion, would be with the intention of the azuras.
A class of beings (though the name is arbitrary) that would eat such thing as human to continue a perceived eternal state.

Personally
So I would say on that basis any tradition calling for that thing(I don't know if any are as I know not any tradition)....would be one of question.
Do Tulkus on rebirth generally say...this is it, I have attained my rebirth, and will now work at this thing....generally; I say they do not seem to do that....reconsideration of path is most common. Not dropping the path but seeking other things in it.
So those that may rebirth as human per example to help others...generally they seem to rethink that, after that is done.

A personal opinion certainly, and perhaps many may consider it of no relevence but perhaps a bit it is.
How can we really qualify any tradition as good or bad or find final purpose to it without having it in our core.
WE don't have to stick our hand in a boiling pot to know it will burn us, but also we cannot know things of complexity without knowing their nuance.

So I could see that also on other basis....my answer being........... we shouldn't qualify other traditions but only our own. Perhaps only stateing what we find good in traditions not our own :smile:

Personally I am not buddhist and hold to no tradition getting most of my tools from Tibetan buddhism, a bit of mantra from pure land a bit of this and that from other. I am however not a dillitant in this, considering one tradition choice for tool of first choice being most important.
So qualify my answer as necessary.
But personally also I then find compassion naturally present, if any tradition did call for rebirth as human, I again would avoid that. As compassion seemingly need not that thing to progress in it or be found.
Less spiritual progression(perhaps) in deva or other realm but also perhaps less for them azura to eat.
And thusly with less eating.... less is the harm they then produce with advancing this thing so they may eat. HUman being perhaps preferred food it being so tasty their nuance and emotionality but other also eaten, all sentient being of solid form chosen....

So less(perhaps) spiritual progression.... but then also less harm.
I would choose that on the basis of less harm rebirth as human..... then be avoided at all costs that thing.
But no bodhisattava rebirthing as human to help human.....less harm by this way of thinking would preclude that.
Escape then as means of less harm being the only thing and way to end or deminish this thing. And
all and every effort exerted to accomplish that one thing...escape, as less harm it produces.
On such basis of compassionate intent one would be accomplishing and where one would end up would really not be all that important...as long as where one did end up one did not end up creating this singular notion of self which creates this thing they eat(azuras or those like them).
The idea one could return as human and really change a thing in a personal fashion, being a misconception.

I also then could be in a way signing my death warrent by saying such a thing in such a realm so dominated(or any number of bad occcurance so great their power be here)...but what matter that :smile: mostly none would read nor consider it but again....what matter that....is that not by this thinking as this realm be....idea of escape being the thing, so one remains and endeavors always, that thing, but never really taking a saw to those bars and escaping..... talking about remaining in prison, so one may teach other prisoners to escape.....seemingly faulted that, all then always teaching eachother but remaining in that place. That place the way it is constructed being harmful producing just by being in that place, that prison.


So there may be variance to this thing of tradition,if this be the case considered in this manner.
Then perhaps pure land makes as much sense as tibetan as zen or theravadan, or any other.
As escape, pure escape from this heinous domination of realm of azura, domination.... what tool we choose, hacksaw to cut bar, hiding in laundry basket, becoming member of work detail, and once out, running as fast as one can....not that be at all important in any fashion.
Not sawing on bar.......... seeing other hiding in laundry basket, saying...that is wrong,(how silly that)....escape by any or all means....that be the thing.
Perhaps one could take another, or a couple, in certain types of prison break out, but not more than that. Personally taking them with them.

It being finally considered to do such less harm always, when one escapes.
Once free........... one can then see what one can do to free others, inside not much one can do :smile:
Perhaps projecting video inside prision wall, if one has a certain type of video camera, or give them building plans of the prison, such as on internet,if they had a computer, or some other thing, If they are inclined to dig out....things on how one may escape........ things of that sort....who really knows or cares that thing...the present being before us now....

pure land tibetan theravadan zen whatever....hacksaw, laundry basket, work detail, or climbing wall.
Personally... I then now await them... saying now this thing in public..they knowing it not that they...be prisioners also.... of their eating. By freedom from imprisonment of any, be to their aid as well....eternal be they not....nothing they eat that may assure.
Ignorant they know that not.... as those they imprison know that not. They are the same.
I await them now and care not....escape it is the thing. Shot in escape, fall and break leg....escape it will be nevertheless, in any form or fashion...this thing be ended.......... this imprisionment.

FAst then imposed that thing, of tantric means, perhaps that thing...with the study of that thing,,of less to it then, perhaps they may know....their persistence in this thing...it is for naught. Nevertheless escape it is the thing. Less harm it certainly will bring. That cannot be denied in any form nor fashion.

And perhaps then that....why even one so escaping, it is so much to them. Fully, full to the brimm with food, never knowing that hunger to be, so obscure that so never considered that other..with the full is the not....one escape, a bit of hunger then, perhaps that is why even one, be so important to them...so they may not know that even once...a thing not eaten. Prisioners not knowing this thing to occur, (one perhaps then said simmply dead).. jailers by necesssity must know of that thing so others may not do as that one did. So they may be helped as well....rebirth as human... no. Not if choice is offered.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

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catmoon
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby catmoon » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:14 am

Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Rakz » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:49 am

What do Vajrayanists have to say about the CIA funding that the Dalai Lama received to train militants in Colorado?

http://www.straight.com/article/dalai-l ... tir-debate

:thinking:

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catmoon
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby catmoon » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:07 am

Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Shutoku » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:32 am

Namo Amida Butsu

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:08 pm

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:10 pm

The only shame were the little results CIA accomplished. Had they helped compressing China back to their borders, that would have been something worthy of notice. With guerrilla tactics the Afghans resisted URSS invasion for decades. They are still independent. Unfortunately, the same result wasn't achieved in Tibet, so they are now devastated and live under the oppression of the Chinese regime.
The Chinese occupation of Tibet is illegal. Tibetans lost their country in result of a militarized illegal invasion that persists today solely due to economic interests, not because there's anything fair or legitimate about it.

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Indrajala
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:05 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Astus
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Astus » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:59 pm

Huseng,

I don't think it will lead to dhyāna as there is an active willed intention ongoing throughout recitation.

Active will exists on all levels of dhyana, otherwise it would not be maintained, except during the 9th, but even then it's decided beforehand when the practitioner would exit from it.

It is a practice whose purpose is to achieve rebirth in a paradise, as I have explained above, hence I think it is escapism.
In the Pure Land there is minimal suffering and the work of salvation is left to Amitabha.


Paradises are the realms of gods, the Pure Land is a realm of a buddha. It is not minimal suffering but zero suffering, so it is called the Land of Bliss. Salvation is not left to Amita Buddha, he only provides the environment, the work is left to the individual.

Serious bodhisattva aspirants stick it out in this world and foster compassion, whereas in a paradise with minimal suffering there is little need to foster compassion.

Beings in the Western Pure Land have access to billions of worlds where they can carry out bodhisattva work. Being stuck in a single world doesn't really compare to that. Plus, talking about saving beings without being at least a 1st level arya bodhisattva is pretty deluded.

The Pure Land is still technically samsara as it is within the three realms and arises due to causes and conditions.

It is beyond samsara as it is not created by deluded beings' karma. See Tiantai's ten world teaching on this.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby LastLegend » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:07 pm

NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Indrajala
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:46 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Indrajala
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:54 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby LastLegend » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:18 pm

NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Astus
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Astus » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:25 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:36 pm

Please tell me how far the borders of Amitabha's Pure land extend.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

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Indrajala
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:37 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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LastLegend
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Re: commonalities and divergences between traditions...

Postby LastLegend » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:48 pm

NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―


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