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vedana vs tanha vs upadana - Dhamma Wheel

vedana vs tanha vs upadana

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Nibbida
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vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby Nibbida » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:53 pm

Any thoughts on this formulation of the three. I know these frequently are not experienced in words, but I'm putting them to words to exemplify them:

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jcsuperstar
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Re: vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:07 pm

i think these are a little mixed up. the feeling and the i like it are two different things, and craving would be the "i want it" but ignorance would probably be the "it will make me happy"
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Reductor
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Re: vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby Reductor » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:43 pm

Feeling: this is good, this is attractive, this is pleasurable
Craving: To gain this would bring pleasure, there would be goodness if this was
Clinging: This is bringing happiness, this is causing goodness
Becoming: I am happy because of this, I am good because of this

That's the way I break them down.

rowyourboat
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Re: vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:26 pm

The way I see it:

feeling: this is pleasant/pleasurable
craving: ..therefore I want it more! (acute)
clinging: (the underlying clinging causes it pops into the mind again and again) (chronic- more of an obsession)
becoming: thought about it popping into the mind (the arising of new 5 aggregates, in this life or if at death, the next life)

Suttas say that we should be able to experience all of the DO in this life (see nidana samyutta). So even Bhava-becoming should be experienced in this life in some form.
Also there must be some clear qualitative difference between craving and clinging- and exploring my experience this is what I can come up with.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Reductor
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Re: vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby Reductor » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:52 pm


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Nibbida
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Re: vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby Nibbida » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:42 am


rowyourboat
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Re: vedana vs tanha vs upadana

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:04 am

Hi Nibbida, Thereductor,

Well, part of my approach to understanding this is that vedana, craving, cliniging and becoming are causally linked (apart from the immediate experiential differences). Therefore I started thinking what in my experience shows a string of phenomena starting from vedana.

Therefore pleasant vedana (after it's loss) conditions the arising of wanting it more (immediately). This is craving and as you say, it not being satisfied leads to suffering. So my next question was what does craving give rise to which can be identified as clinging. My understanding was that it leads to longer term obsession with the object of craving. This ties in very well with the idea of upadana- grasping, attachment, clinging. The mind clings to the object. (Which might lead to wanting to experience it more and more, and of course prolong the experience). I see clinging as a partially hidden mental factor as we are all attached to various things now,but yet we don't feel it, until that clinging is challenged with a loss. It is not very apparent unlike craving which is very much 'in your face'. Strong intermittent cravings leads to a more lasting attachment/clinging to the object of craving.

When there is a long lasting attachment this then gives rise to thought at other times, about the object of craving. This is the next step in the string that I experienced. We might remember something particularly nice that we ate for example later on in the day, removed in place and time from when we originally experienced the object. This thought which arises in the mind has 4 mental components (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) and is experienced in our body (rupa). Hence the five aggregates (or a 'being') comes into ..being. This is becoming. If we are alive it happens like in the example above. Or if we die then then whatever energies that come into existence from when craving arises continues into the next birth where it needs expression/release.

This is my take in this in any case.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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