Ignorance/enlightenment

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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:17 pm

White Lotus wrote:is knowing that we are all ignorant, true enlightenment... that ultimately there is nothing we can know and that knowing one doesnt know is true knowledge. we certainly think we know about things but do we really? i am ignorant.

there is talk of the natural state, seeing own nature, seeing non duality, the 84,000 enlightenments, ordinary mind, awareness, consciousness, vivid awareness, so many different takes on enlightenment.
perhaps in the end we just dont know?

i just dont know!

is knowing ones ignorance enlightenment? is unknowing superior to knowing, inspite of them both being true nature. its only someone who knows enough about things who will come to this conclusion, that the more we know, actually the less we can be sure of.

knowing true nature is knowledge of all things, isnt this knowledge followed by an unknowing.

perhaps, but i just dont know!

am i ignorant and just how important is this ignorance.

best wishes, Tom.


If you think that nonsensical babbling has anything to do with Dharma you are completely mistaken.
am i ignorant and just how important is this ignorance.

So, let me see if I get it... if you say that ignorance is important and you are ignorant, then it entails that you have something very important.
I see... so you're proud of your ignorance! That's a funny one. Perhaps because you mistake it for something important? If you think what you're doing has anything to do with abandoning the sickness of effort, as Dzogchen practitioners learn, then you're sorely mistaken. That's not the natural state, primordial wisdom or anything of the sort. It's fuzziness and confusion.

I'm sorry to say, but maybe you should do like the rest and try to learn something, putting at least a little of yourself in it, instead of thinking your ignorance has any importance.
You just have plenty of nothing to show, not wisdom or non dual wisdom or any of the kind. It's a fantasy, mate, and you're deep in it. It is a good idea to stop it while you can. I don't want to sound harsh, but you'll get nowhere but deep sh1t, deeper than you are already in. I'm saying this for your own good.
All that talk is made of excuses for slouching and doing absolutely nothing while pretending to having it all figured out.

You've been posting this sort of nonsense a little everywhere in the board for some time and so far people have been putting up with it quite benevolently. Perhaps it's time for a news flash: That sort of ignorance is not enlightenment. It's plain ol' samsara. Know this and know that I'm saying this for your sake, not because I'm a mod. This is why I chose the Dharma-free-for-all to say something. Because you can say those things here. But you can also be advised to drop that foolish pseudo deep Dzogchen pose. It's worthless and only hinders your path. And frankly, it's already a bit annoying...

Wishing you well, Tom.

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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:31 pm

Dechen, perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. i dont know, and i know that i know this dont know as i write this. but in an hour or two i will once again 'forget' this dont know and once again think that i know something when infact i know nothing.

dont know is the true nature, just as know is the true nature. all a continuity, a unity to put it simply. all true nature.

if someone finds something new, it can be threatening. it is my sadness that i might in any way confuse or irritate people on Dharma Wheel. that is not my intention.

just dont know.

to know that ultimately nothing at all can be known, is this ignorance? if it is, then i say that ignorance is special.

just dont know.

but, Dechen, you know something, dont you? im afraid i know nothing at all, not even the true nature which is a daily feature of my every day life. i see it, but i dont know it.

just dont know. i dont even know if i dont know!

best wishes Tom.

(ps, dont feel bad about your defence of what you perceive to be the dharma. i respect and love that. tc.)
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:43 pm

OK, I BELIEVE YOU! You don't need all that talk to convince us that you don't know much. Trust me, it's obvious.
So, please, stop repeating it for goodness sake! ;)
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:49 pm

White Lotus wrote:Dechen, perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. i dont know, and i know that i know this dont know as i write this. but in an hour or two i will once again 'forget' this dont know and once again think that i know something when infact i know nothing.

dont know is the true nature, just as know is the true nature. all a continuity, a unity to put it simply. all true nature.

if someone finds something new, it can be threatening. it is my sadness that i might in any way confuse or irritate people on Dharma Wheel. that is not my intention.

just dont know.

to know that ultimately nothing at all can be known, is this ignorance? if it is, then i say that ignorance is special.

just dont know.

but, Dechen, you know something, dont you? im afraid i know nothing at all, not even the true nature which is a daily feature of my every day life. i see it, but i dont know it.

just dont know. i dont even know if i dont know!

best wishes Tom.

(ps, dont feel bad about your defence of what you perceive to be the dharma. i respect and love that. tc.)


Too much Kwan Um .... gets in the way of only going straight* .....

Kirt

*how's that for irony?
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby muni » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:42 am

Some ignorance is all I can share.

The idea that it is a "solid me who need to obtain knowledge" is a example of ignorance, the useful "empty" tools study-practice...

The more I study the more I know hides worldly aim, not liberation.

Misperception is taken in the dream car of live as a drunken fool on the steering wheel, harming itself by all what attracks.

Knowing is vast, without little boss freezing all what it percieves or experiences.

Ego is the thing to know its nature, then all fools in the world are undone. Ah no, I want to keep them, don't take my toys away!

Ego knowledge is like hard stones knocking against other stones while knowing is transparant warm and brightful.
Last edited by muni on Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby muni » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:48 am

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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:22 pm

muni wrote:Some ignorance is all I can share.

If it is ignorance, perhaps it would be better to stay silent, no?

The idea that it is a "me who need to obtain knowledge" is a example of ignorance, the useful "empty" tools study-practice...

Conventionally what else did you want to obtain knowledge? If your "me" would never had heard about Dharma, you think you would attain enlightenment? If your "me" had never gained the knowledge of language, you think you would attain liberation? Ignorance is assuming the self has real existence. It's also ignorance assuming that because the self is empty it has no function. The entire Buddhadharma is a set of conventionally valid assertions. Delusions to cure the ultimate delusion. Not ignorance/ mistakes to cure ignorance. There's a big difference between this delusion- from an ultimate perspective yet valid from the relative perspective- and invalid cognition, equivalent to the difference between a cow with horns and a hare with horns. The first is conventionally true while the second isn't. Ultimately there are only their empty concepts.

The more I study the more I know hides worldly aim, not liberation.

Are you saying that the two wisdoms of hearing and contemplation of the teachings are useless? You think the third wisdom of meditation grows on trees for you to go there and simply grab it? People with attainments know they really must liberate themselves from intellectual understanding alone, going beyond concepts and ideas that can't reveal paramatha satya. They can say they know that more study may be a hindrance if they don't go beyond intellectual understanding. Newbies need to study first so they learn how to develop a practice that leads to insight. Before going beyond concepts, they need to know what concepts will they go beyond of. Otherwise it's just delusions of grandeur and infantile dreams.

Misperception is taken in the dream car of live as a drunken fool on the steering wheel, harming itself by all what attracks.
Knowing is vast, without little boss freezing all what it percieves or experiences.
Ego is the thing to know its nature, then all fools in the world are undone. Ah no, I want to keep them, don't take my toys away!
Ego knowledge is like hard stones knocking against other stones while knowing is transparant warm and brightful.

Yeah... right.... you know, there's an expression for those who unskillfully mix the relative and the absolute: it's called the "emptiness sickness", humorously.
It's hard to cure! It's like someone who didn't take an antibiotic correctly and then it stops making effect, making the illness even worse. Such are Dharma practitioners who suffer from the "emptiness sickness". Teachings, instead of helping them, make things even worse, because they transform the medicine they get into poison. A nasty alchemy this is.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby muni » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:45 pm

These quotes are expressions from Nyingma-Kagyu teachings. The tread is about ignorance- enlightenment.

It says not that no any study should be done. It is pointing to ego who shouldn' t add the teachings to embellish its being, comfort samsara. Then buddhism is no help but object to protect illusion, harm.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:01 pm

Context is everything, muni. Without the proper context, teachings may be completely misinterpreted.
You failed to provide the proper context, especially when posting after the rebuttal of white lotus nonsense.
Your quotes don't point in the direction of this last post of yours, not without the proper context being provided in the same post.
And by the way, nobody is protecting Buddhism here. At most, we try to protect PEOPLE, newcomers and less experienced practitioners, from being confused by reading nonsensical posts or statements that require proper context in their presentation. Again you fail the mark, muni, I'm sorry to say.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby muni » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:17 pm

In all quotes is their the mistaken perception visible. Newcomers, then undo most post about tantra, Dzogchen and sutras, Shastras................Very dangerous! :tongue:

We can check own mind whether Dharma Protection or Ego Protection, whether liberation or suffering.

"It is clear for me that we have to control ourselves, not critizise "others" which keeps us in delusion. Rather we should check our mind only". Dalai Lama.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:31 pm

:smile:
Can you please stop making sniping remarks and insinuations, especially using teachings out of context, against what I'm doing?

If I wrote in this thread, rebutting White Lotus poorly thought post, it's because I care enough about others and do my best to avoid them getting confused by people who can't get over themselves and mostly spread confusion, like you are doing at this point.

Come up with something that indeed contributes to improve the understanding of others about this subject, if you please. Otherwise you can chose not to participate.
Making statements without the proper context adds nothing, especially when your intention is revealed by your timing. I'm not a hypocrite that will pretend not to understand the game you're playing.
Your aim in this thread seems to be indirectly criticizing my actions, albeit in a camouflaged manner.
It's not the first time too, so I know where you are coming from.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby muni » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:49 pm

Dechen, I am not trying to upset you. All what I say is not about you or contradicting you but about the teachings.

As by Mahayana awareness we shouldn't see shortcomings in each other, to see those is harming own being, then our mind cannot be at ease.

I am sure this is only a misunderstanding. :anjali:
Last edited by muni on Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:59 pm

Sure, and I was born yesterday, muni. :roll:

Anyway :focus:
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby muni » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:06 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Sure, and I was born yesterday, muni. :roll:

Anyway :focus:


Aversion is not your nature. Not at all.

Thank you, Dechen.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:36 pm

Dechen illustrates the natural state clearly Muni, i bow to his wisdom, however, you i embrace.

in embracing you Muni, i am one with Dechen's wisdom.

i/you will never know, and how beautiful that is!

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:48 pm

My goodness... Imageyou have the ability to leave me speechless, WL. And that's not an easy thing to do! :lol:
muni, I won't repeat myself, so...

:focus:
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:23 pm

Dechen, thank you.

Kirtu. only go straight!

but i dont understand, please explain.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby maximohudson » Fri May 18, 2012 1:27 am

Let's see, the main topic seems to be are we already enlightened, but eparated from the experience by our ignorance?

Well, if we believe that all sentient being eventually obtain enlightenment, then I suppose one can say (from a perspective which ignores and/or transcends what humans experience as spiritual growth) that we are already enlightened and are separated from the experience through the current self-perception of our perceived being existing in a developmental stage leading up to that enlightenment. This would be similar to the way a way a self-aware acorn would perceive itself as an acorn and not an oak, though it is possible to conceive both existing simultaneously. (Hell, for all I know if might be possible to perceive both states existing simultaneously.)

Is this an example of ignorance being that whic separates us from an enlightened state, or training separating us from an enlightened state, or perception? If I can't hit a home run, is that ignorance, training or perception? To say that it is only ignorance that separates us from experiencing an enlightened state might be a bit simplistic. Again back to the acorn or a tiger if you like. Is the acorn not an oak and the Tiger cub not an adult because of ignorance, or are there other factors involved?

So this is my two cents worth on this thread, but I really would like to know where you folks have gotten into your noggins that space does not exist. As far as time goes, I believe what we observe are cycles and action occurring within the reoccurrence of these cycles. Life cycle, breathing cycle, moon cycle, the cycle of the rotation of the planet, the cycle of the orbit of the planet, the mechanical cycle of a clock. We can learn the rules we have invented regarding the mechanical actions of a clock. This is what we refer to as telling time. Time itself though seems to exist only as a very, very useful concept.

However, as far as space not existing, I had never heard anyone express this belief before I read this thread. I'm not sure how change could occur without the space for it to occur. If change cannot occur then I'm not sure there could be awareness. It seems to me that awareness is the awareness of change. Where did you folks come up with this concept that space does not exist? Inquiring minds want to know. :smile:
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Re: Ignorance/enlightenment

Postby maximohudson » Fri May 18, 2012 8:58 am

As far as the notion put forth in this thread that study is an obstruction to spiritual progress, this is strongly repudiated in no uncertain terms by Tsongkhapa in "The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment" or the "Lam Rim Chen Mo." In fact, it is stated there that study is a valid practice and is actually a form of meditation. If you would like to read about this, the topic is the first item discussed in Vol. 1, Chapter Six: "Refuting Misconceptions About Meditation."

"Qualm - ...Moreover, repeated analysis will prevent you from future attainment of buddhahood because conceptual thought apprehends signs of true existence.

Reply - This is the nonsensical chatter of someone who is utterly ignorant of the crucial points of practice..."
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