the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:47 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Nemo wrote:Carnitine.


Healthy children and adults do not need to consume carnitine from food or supplements, as the liver and kidneys produce sufficient amounts from the amino acids lysine and methionine to meet daily needs [1-3]. The Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) of the National Academy of Sciences reviewed studies on the functions of carnitine in 1989 and concluded it was not an essential nutrient [3]. The FNB has not established Dietary Reference Intakes (DRIs)—including a recommended dietary allowance (RDA)—for carnitine [4].

from: National Institute of Health (U.S.) http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Carnit ... ofessional

Lysine is found in all meats and dairy products as well as in soybeans and many other vegan foods too.
Methionine is found in vegan foods in higher amounts than meat.


The one in 40,000 who cannot synthesize sufficient quantities to the point that they may even experience cardiac arrhythmia and death may disagree with you. Many more people under stress cannot produce enough even with a carnivorous diet. Pregnant women often become deficient for example. This is that debunked protein combining theory that only works for some people. Any serious veggie who does not have an axe to grind is painfully aware how unhealthy many vegetarians look. Many people are not adapted well to agriculture.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:42 pm

Nemo wrote:
The one in 40,000 who cannot synthesize sufficient quantities to the point that they may even experience cardiac arrhythmia and death may disagree with you. Many more people under stress cannot produce enough even with a carnivorous diet. Pregnant women often become deficient for example. This is that debunked protein combining theory that only works for some people. Any serious veggie who does not have an axe to grind is painfully aware how unhealthy many vegetarians look. Many people are not adapted well to agriculture.


I can relate to this. My body does not produce caffeine on its own, and so I have to take a daily supplement, sometimes 2 or 3 pots of coffee a day.
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Re: Ahimsa, Veganism, and Existing Food/Supplements

Postby KeithBC » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:22 pm

SittingSilent wrote:I am learning more about Buddhism, although I'm not sure which school I feel comfortable in. However, as I am learning more about the concept of ahimsa, I am feeling drawn to become a vegan, especially considering the horrific conditions other sentient beings are raised and then slaughtered under simply to provide food for us. I am not comfortable with this. My difficulty however, is with what I am supposed to do with the chicken and beef in my freezer, as well as the medications that are in capsules made with gelatin (animal-sourced), etc. I feel I shouldn't consume them because that would be contributing to all four negative intentions, but if I dispose of them, how is that any better?

Thoughts please!

E

Congratulations on your leanings towards veganism. Surprisingly, you will find as much opposition to your view among Buddhists as among non-Buddhists. Personally, while conceding that veganism is not a requirement for Buddhists, I think it is an exceptionally good way of putting Buddhist values into practice.

There is nothing you can do with non-vegan products that you already have that will help the sentient beings that they came from. You have to accept the discomfort you now feel about it as your karma from your past actions. C'est la vie. Two alternatives are often suggested for new vegans: either use them up until they are gone, without replacing them, or else donate them to a food bank or thrift store (depending on the nature of the product). Throwing them in the gargabe is not suggested as a good option, because it is wasteful. Using up or donating the items at least means that they will provide some benefit to someone without being wasted. Which alternative appeals to you is very much a personal decision.

Some items cannot be donated. If you feel you can not use them, then the only alternative is to garbage them. It is wasteful, but that is simply your past karma catching up with you. Let it go.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:42 am

ha ha, u on the edge homes?!!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:16 am

A documentary Forks Over Knives (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forks_Over_Knives) makes a good case for a vegan diet, because it links many diseases to eating animal protein, including osteoporosis, diabetes and heart disease. It is currently available on Netflix.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:45 am

Latest off topic posts removed.
Again, I urge mindfulness when debating this issue.
Respect others, even if they don't share your opinion about diets and please keep on topic.

Thank you.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:06 am

^Da Ban Hammer wielding Dharma protector moderator Bodhisattva have spoken again! :P

Newayz, it's sad dat I've gotten fatter after I became a Vegetarian :(
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:36 am

Food_Eatah wrote:Newayz, it's sad dat I've gotten fatter after I became a Vegetarian :(


You have to work out (all people who do not labor manually do and nowadays many of them have to too) and eat right. Vegetarianism/veganism is not a panacea.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:30 pm

Food_Eatah wrote:ha ha, u on the edge homes?!!


Sorry for this brief off-topic, but when reading your posts, in my head you always sound like Ali G haha... (which confuses me since I know you're from NZ lol)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:52 pm

kirtu wrote:
Food_Eatah wrote:Newayz, it's sad dat I've gotten fatter after I became a Vegetarian :(


You have to work out (all people who do not labor manually do and nowadays many of them have to too) and eat right. Vegetarianism/veganism is not a panacea.


:thumbsup:

Correct and another point is that a vegetarian / vegan diet can be unhealthy if you don't do it right. For example, technically someone who eats pizza, doughnuts, and cake everyday is a vegetarian. And another person who only eats potato chips and cola everyday is a "vegan".

But for the most part, a person who eats a variety of grains, pastas, veggies, fruits, and other vegan/vegetarian foods is very healthy with absolutely no deficiencies. In most countries the problem is not deficiencies, but rather excess (foods and fats).
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:54 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:In most countries the problem is not deficiencies, but rather excess (foods and fats).


Not really the case in much of India. Indians are majority vegetarian, but suffer deficiencies and in my estimation a lot of people here are underfed. A lot of working class individuals like day labourers and so on don't consume as much dairy as they probably should due to the cost. A lot of the poor subsist off of dal, rice, roti and cheap vegetables like onions. Veganism in India is possible, but besides a few Jains has no cultural basis here. Also soya milk costs 80 rupees for a litre, while a day labourer's minimum wage is usually between 100 - 200 (per day), so it would be costly to eat like western vegan. In any case, the poor don't really consume too much dairy, though up the class ladder this changes it seems.

It is actually a kind of visible class difference. The middle-class and wealthy, albeit vegetarians, are often fat, while the lower class, who make up most of the population, are stick thin and visibly undernourished.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:00 pm

Huseng wrote: Also soya milk costs 80 rupees for a litre, while a day labourer's minimum wage is usually between 100 - 200 (per day), so it would be costly to eat like western vegan. In any case, the poor don't really consume too much dairy, though up the class ladder this changes it seems.


You could open a soy milk dairy (or teach people to do so). How much can soybeans cost there anyway?

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:06 pm

kirtu wrote:
Huseng wrote: Also soya milk costs 80 rupees for a litre, while a day labourer's minimum wage is usually between 100 - 200 (per day), so it would be costly to eat like western vegan. In any case, the poor don't really consume too much dairy, though up the class ladder this changes it seems.


You could open a soy milk dairy (or teach people to do so). How much can soybeans cost there anyway?

Kirt


I don't think soya milk would catch on with locals. They like cow's milk. It also has a certain culturally ingrained appeal what with cows being venerated amongst Hindus. Soya milk is a rare commodity here, and probably more sold to hipster backpacker types. I actually like Indian soya milk more than the Japanese variety. Tastes much better.

Soybeans are probably dirt cheap if you buy them in bulk. Vegetables are pretty cheap in India, even by local standards, because more often than not you buy them direct from the farmer who grew them on the side of the road. Even in Leh way up north I was buying a kilo of tomatoes for 20 rupees. One cabbage was usually 10 rupees. Here in Himachal Pradesh it is probably cheaper.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:52 pm

Food_Eatah wrote:^Da Ban Hammer wielding Dharma protector moderator Bodhisattva have spoken again! :P

Newayz, it's sad dat I've gotten fatter after I became a Vegetarian :(

Generally better health as a vegan, regardless of one's weight.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Inge » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:12 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:But for the most part, a person who eats a variety of grains, pastas, veggies, fruits, and other vegan/vegetarian foods is very healthy with absolutely no deficiencies. In most countries the problem is not deficiencies, but rather excess (foods and fats).


The problem of widespread overweight is also due to deficiencies. Industrialized food (including fruits and vegetables) has become depleted in many nutrients, so we need to eat in excess to get enough of those nutrients.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:22 am

Mr. G wrote:[i]The Buddha did allow bhikkhus to eat meat and fish except under the following circumstances:

If a bhikkhu sees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it. (M.I,369)

- Bhikkhu Ariyesako


Do you think the 3-fold rule means it's OK for a modern lay-Buddhist to buy meat from a supermarket for their own consumption? I'm not convinced it does.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 am

ronnewmexico wrote:In ameica at least the trend for vegetarian is firmly established. Suchly places like whole foods hains foods places that offer such and label such are doing great stock wise and have for years being recession proof.
....

LOL, I wish I could convince my wife and kids to eat vegetarian, especially my wife since she tries to convince me not to eat vegan.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby kirtu » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:10 pm

CP Gumby wrote:
Mr. G wrote:[i]The Buddha did allow bhikkhus to eat meat and fish except under the following circumstances:

If a bhikkhu sees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it. (M.I,369)

- Bhikkhu Ariyesako


Do you think the 3-fold rule means it's OK for a modern lay-Buddhist to buy meat from a supermarket for their own consumption? I'm not convinced it does.

CP


We have to live in the real world where virtually everywhere everything has been commoditized. If you're picking a lobster out of a tank then that is killed for you for sure. If you are buying meat or fish at a store in which the meat or fish is on display then that doesn't fall under the rule. But lay Buddhists aren't subject to that rule anyway.

The entire world is a giant slaughter house so we have to have compassion for all the beings in it.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:04 pm

Inge wrote:The problem of widespread overweight is also due to deficiencies. Industrialized food (including fruits and vegetables) has become depleted in many nutrients, so we need to eat in excess to get enough of those nutrients.
I dare you to become fat by overeating spinach, artichokes and lentils (for example). No, I double dare you!

The problem is not depletion of nutrients but an over consumption of processed carbohydrates and saturated fats. Fried potatoes are problematic (as are fried foods in general). Sugar rich snacks are also a big problem. Soft drinks, sweetened beverages and processed fruit juices instead of water is another problem. Lack of physical exercise. Fast foods in general. White pasta, white rice and white bread. Vegetarians and vegans can also fall (easily) into this trap, especially vegetarians, as there is a tendency to replace meat with lots of cheese and eggs.

Unhealthiness in vegetarians and vegans is also associated with not eating enough pulses and nuts. These are incredibly important for amino acids. The naturally high fat content of nuts is not concerning because they are not saturated fats and actually assist the body to rid itself of saturated fats. Needless to say, if one is a vegetarian/vegan and they are not eating bucket loads of fresh veges and fruits every day then they are doomed to a starved, pale, skeletal status.

Alcohol consumption is another BIG factor in obesity. Alcohlic drinks are pure calories. I am reminded of some vegan friends of mine that loved their beer: pale, skeletal but with a beer gut!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Inge » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:44 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Inge wrote:The problem of widespread overweight is also due to deficiencies. Industrialized food (including fruits and vegetables) has become depleted in many nutrients, so we need to eat in excess to get enough of those nutrients.
I dare you to become fat by overeating spinach, artichokes and lentils (for example). No, I double dare you!

The problem is not depletion of nutrients but an over consumption of processed carbohydrates and saturated fats. Fried potatoes are problematic (as are fried foods in general). Sugar rich snacks are also a big problem. Soft drinks, sweetened beverages and processed fruit juices instead of water is another problem. Lack of physical exercise. Fast foods in general. White pasta, white rice and white bread. Vegetarians and vegans can also fall (easily) into this trap, especially vegetarians, as there is a tendency to replace meat with lots of cheese and eggs.

Unhealthiness in vegetarians and vegans is also associated with not eating enough pulses and nuts. These are incredibly important for amino acids. The naturally high fat content of nuts is not concerning because they are not saturated fats and actually assist the body to rid itself of saturated fats. Needless to say, if one is a vegetarian/vegan and they are not eating bucket loads of fresh veges and fruits every day then they are doomed to a starved, pale, skeletal status.

Alcohol consumption is another BIG factor in obesity. Alcohlic drinks are pure calories. I am reminded of some vegan friends of mine that loved their beer: pale, skeletal but with a beer gut!
:namaste:


I was a overweight vegan for 12 years, eating mainly organic and bio-dynamic non-processed food, and using almost no alcohol or soft drinks. I did however consume to much porridge with soy or rice milk and oranic raw cane sugar, and also too much baked goods and home-made pizza etc.

I agree that depletion of nutrients is not the problem, but it is a very big problem. When the body don't get the nutrients that it needs (from the depleted food), the food cravings won't stop, and so overeating is the result. So there are in a way over-eating and under-eating at the same time. The over-weight are under-nourished.

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