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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Okay, enough of mental masturbation.

Now some actual End time prophecies please.

:tantrum:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
Namdrol,

You said,

Namdrol wrote:
Reality i.e. suchness, emptiness, etc., is not conditioned.


Do you mean they are unconditioned?



Yes, of course the reality of things is unconditioned, since it is not a product. Anything which is a product is by definition is conditioned; anything which is not a product is unconditioned.



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Quote:
I said that things arise in dependence i.e. dependently, because of the reality of things i.e. the reality of things being emptiess free from extremes.


In other words, it is due to the reality of things (which you assert are not conditioned, which I'm wondering if you mean unconditioned like space), that things arise in dependence.



In other words, like space, the reality of things is not a product. Emptiness, suchness and so on are not produced, etc., it is in that sense along that we consider the reality of things "unconditioned".

Quote:
If you say that emptiness is unconditioned, then you have to explain how it has some kind of causal functionality which allows things to arise in dependence.


Emptiness is not an efficient cause, but it is a formal cause, like space. In other words, if things were not empty, they could not arise since they would have to exist; the arising of the existent is a contradiction in terms.

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If you agree that suchness is neither conditioned nor unconditioned, then there is no disagreement. If you're saying that suchness is unconditioned (like empty space), then I will disagree.


Sucness is not a product, therefore, it is unproduced. Whatever is unproduced is not subject to conditions. Whatever is not subject to conditions is, by strict definition, unconditioned.

If you deny that suchness is unconditioned, you also disagree with the Madhyamaka school. For example the Tarkajvala states:

    "The unconditioned is the two cessations, space and suchness"

The unconditioned is analytical cessation and non-analytical cessation, space and suchness. Analytical cessation is discriminating wisdom i.e. having analyzed and extinguished the evident afflictions, that analysis and cessation is given the name "nirvana". Non-analytical cessation is when a given thing is never separate from cessation by any means. Space opens up room and has the characteristic of being unobstructed. Suchness previously did not exist, nor come to not exist through destruction, is not [presently] mutually dependent and has no basis. Those four are permanent because their nature is unchanging.


I am afraid that trying prove that idea that suchness is niether conditioned nor unconditioned is fraught with definitional flaws.

Suchness is not a product, therefore, it is included among among unconditioned phenomena, like space and the two cessations.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:08 pm 
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The suchness of things is conditional on the existence of things, is it not?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:31 am 
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himalayanspirit wrote:
Okay, enough of mental masturbation.

Now some actual End time prophecies please.

:tantrum:
I prophecise that your end time as himalayan spirit at dharmawheel will coincide with your increased frustration at not receiving intelligent prophecies which will lead to you not logging on anymore. Well, that's what I'm getting from my crystal rune ouija tarot board.

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Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:25 pm 
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I prophesy that in the ending of Dharma, a single man will retain the teachings and try to spread them alone. Enduring years of frustration he will listen to tales about the Maya, tarot card readings, Alistair Crowley, magical appearances and the Stonemasons all on the offchance of injecting an actual Buddhist idea into the conversation once a month or so. Eventualy he will realize the task is hopeless, retire to the countryside, and spend the rest of his days raising purebred souvlaki.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:21 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
The suchness of things is conditional on the existence of things, is it not?


No -- since things are not established, their suchness is not established either. That is the suchness of things.

N

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:02 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
catmoon wrote:
The suchness of things is conditional on the existence of things, is it not?


No -- since things are not established, their suchness is not established either. That is the suchness of things.

N


At the risk of starting from square 1 all over again, I ask... are you using "suchness" as a synonym for "emptiness"?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:38 pm 
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"Once a month or so" huh? :roll:


gregkavarnos wrote:
himalayanspirit wrote:
Okay, enough of mental masturbation.

Now some actual End time prophecies please.

:tantrum:
I prophecise that your end time as himalayan spirit at dharmawheel will coincide with your increased frustration at not receiving intelligent prophecies which will lead to you not logging on anymore. Well, that's what I'm getting from my crystal rune ouija tarot board.


You forgot Deepap Chakra books. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
In other words, like space, the reality of things is not a product. Emptiness, suchness and so on are not produced, etc., it is in that sense along that we consider the reality of things "unconditioned".


The reality of things -- namely, suchness -- if ascribed with a characteristic such as being unconditioned and, like space, having the quality of NOT being subject to arising, abiding and cessation, would be a posited view. Hence, your statement,

Quote:
If you deny that suchness is unconditioned, you also disagree with the Madhyamaka school. For example the Tarkajvala states:


is problematic because Madhyamaka teaches the cessation of all views via negation, not assertion.



Quote:
Emptiness is not an efficient cause, but it is a formal cause, like space. In other words, if things were not empty, they could not arise since they would have to exist; the arising of the existent is a contradiction in terms.


How are conditioned entities able to depend on that which is unconditioned for their existence?

I don't deny that emptiness (which in the ontological sense is the mode of existence which things conventionally arise and cease) is essential for things to arise. My contention is that you assert it is unconditioned yet still forms an essential basis for which conditioned entities arise.

The quality of space, which is unconditioned, is the absence of form.

Suchness is free of characteristics like this -- it is not conditioned, it is not unconditioned. It is beyond all characteristics.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:00 pm 
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himalayanspirit wrote:
Okay, enough of mental masturbation.

Now some actual End time prophecies please.

:tantrum:


Here is a vivid description of the Kaliyuga as it concerns Boudhanath Stupa in Kathmandu:

http://www.khandro.net/stupa_Boudhnath_KD.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Here is an article about The Decline of the Dharma in Early Chinese Buddhism, by Randall L. Nadeau, http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Decline_of_the_Dharma.html , in it are several buddhist profecies.

Randall Nadeau uses a profecy common in Mahayana, where you have 500 years of Correct Dharma, followed by 1000 years of Semblance Dharma, followed by 10 000 years of Degeneration of Dharma. This last period is called Mofa in chinese and Mappo in japanese, Mappo should be familiar if you have read anything about Nichiren or Pureland schools.

In another profecy, that is somewhere in the Nikayas, we have 500 years of correct Dharma, followed by 500 years when buddhists are proficient in meditation, followed by 500 years when they are strong in spreading the Dharma, followed by 500 years when they are strong in building viharas, gompas and monasteries, followed by the last 500 years when buddhist are strong only in internal disputes and quarrelling. This profecy is known in the Mahayana too, the last five hundred years figures prominently in the Diamond Sutra.

When you add up these 5 times 500 years you get 2500 years, which is very close at hand right now.
There is a profecy according to which if you observe the Eight Precepts just for one day during this last 500 years, it will have an enormous karmic benefit, so much so that it is quite impossible to comprehend its magnitude!! Thus we find that its practice is encouraged in many Centres.


Here is an article about Buddhist Eschatology, it has some nice things in it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_eschatology

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Huseng wrote:

is problematic because Madhyamaka teaches the cessation of all views via negation, not assertion.



This passage does not assert a view it provides a definition.


Quote:
How are conditioned entities able to depend on that which is unconditioned for their existence?


They don't, nor did I claim they were.

Quote:
My contention is that you assert it is unconditioned yet still forms an essential basis for which conditioned entities arise.


According to Candrakirti, emptiness can be accepted as a basis for the arising of phenomena.

BTW, the characteristic of space is not the absence of form since space pervades everything.



Quote:
Suchness is free of characteristics like this -- it is not conditioned, it is not unconditioned. It is beyond all characteristics.


As I pointed out already, suchness can be defined as unconditioned.

N

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:58 am 
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Argh, I fell to my temptation of posting and lookin at deez forum again!!!! :( :( :(

post edited - Mr. G

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:13 pm 
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The profecy of five times five hundred years is in Mahasamnipata sutra, translated to chinese by Dharmaksema in 414 CE, its theravada counterpart is Mahasamnipata sutta.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:12 am 
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Has anyone read this?

http://www.amazon.com/Once-upon-Future- ... 0895819260

It is the only book I have any experience with on this subject and looks interesting :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:28 am 
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Noah wrote:
Has anyone read this?

http://www.amazon.com/Once-upon-Future- ... 0895819260

It is the only book I have any experience with on this subject and looks interesting :)


This is a very good book by Dr. Nattier. I think it was her PhD dissertation. Well worth reading cover to cover.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:21 am 
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Aemilius wrote:
...This last period is called Mofa in chinese and Mappo in japanese, Mappo should be familiar if you have read anything about Nichiren or Pureland schools.
I don't know about Nichiren and Pureland but I do know that the only mapo I am extremely familiar with is this one:
Attachment:
ma po to fu.png
ma po to fu.png [ 128.96 KiB | Viewed 658 times ]

Eggplant, pork mince and tofu in a spicey-as-hell black bean sauce! Gotta love Sechuan cooking! I'm sure it would be a Purelanders nightmare to eat this.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:46 am 
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Why is it the most entertaining writing on this board is always off topic?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:55 am 
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himalayanspirit wrote:
Okay, enough of mental masturbation.

Now some actual End time prophecies please.

:tantrum:


The teachings of Lord Buddha will disappear.

Kirt

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