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Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom - Dhamma Wheel

Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Alex123
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Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:04 am

What is the difference between:

To know through wisdom (paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)
Vs
To know through touching and abiding with the body, and know through wisdom (kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)?


Does the first imply indirect knowing with wisdom of something, without actually experiencing it "with the body"?

With metta,


Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:27 am

Greetings Alex,

What's the context this appears in?

Without knowing the context, it's quite possible this is referring to the "body witness" variety of sekha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Alex123
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:16 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:31 am


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Alex123
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:46 am

The problem is that Arhat liberated through wisdom is said even about 1st Jhana to
"and he knows it through wisdom (paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti), not just Aruppas, but from 1st Jhana and higher.

On the other hand Both-Liberated is said even about 1st Jhana to "he remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment." (kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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mikenz66
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:27 am

Hi Alex,

I think that's why Bhikkhu Bodhi here: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
seems to be suggesting that Jhana is probably necessary for the non-returner level, and almost certainly the Arahant level. Perhaps there are some useful clues in that article - I have not studied it in detail.

Mike

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:08 am

SN 12.70 (S ii 121) Susima Sutta tells of arahant-s who were liberated through discernment but hadn't realized any of the other five higher gnoses (abhiñña-s) or the formless attainments.

MN 70 (M i 477) Kīṭāgiri Sutta and AN 9.44 (A iv 452) Paññāvimutta Sutta tell us that to be liberated through discernment one does so via at least the first jhāna. Thus the arahant-s in SN 12.70 were able to attain at least the first jhāna (in the suttantika sense of jhāna).

Liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimutta) is usually understood to have both the jhāna-s and formless attainments, as well as the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha). There is an abhidhamma distinction between those liberated both ways who don't attain cessation of apperception and feeling and those who do. I can't remember if this is specifically addressed in the sutta-s.

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:08 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:17 pm


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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:31 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:21 pm


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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:52 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:25 am


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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:47 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:17 pm

The path can be momentary for Bahiya. He has special mention as the quickest of the lot. We should not use an atypical example and think it applies to us. Many suttas just talk of people going away after speaking to the Buddha and sitting upright in the forest and achieving what can be achieved by with strong effort. Bill Gates should not be considered that end result of someone embarking on a career in IT. :)

I agree with the importance of samadhi as mentioned by the above posters. While each path factor may well lead on from the first to the last, they can be developed individually as well. Those meditation technicians of the mind know the specific development of samadhi is invaluable. Also the effect of samadhi is not adequately captured intellectually- hence poorly expressed in books. I would almost go as far to say that 40-50% of the battle is to develop a pure strong samadhi.

This is not to say the those doing 'vipassana' will not eventually get into jhana. They do. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who didn't go into jhana while doing 'dry' vipassana. The path works just like the Buddha intended it (right mindfulness leads to right concentration).

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:33 pm


Nyana
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:37 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:52 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Nyana
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:47 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:18 pm

The first people Buddha thought of teaching were his teachers- perhaps out of gratitude/familiarity but all because 'they had little dust in their eyes' These teaches were reaching formless jhanas hence they had well unified minds full of samadhi, but were not on the path to nibbaana.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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