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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:32 am 
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Mr. G wrote:
Now that we're done judging him having walked in his shoes


I know what it's like to have a difficult childhood. My mother was schizophrenic. I don't think a difficult childhood excuses his behavior.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:04 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:16 am 
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He just turned 21 and many things could be happening. What's going on could be the expression of wisdom appropriate to the circumstances.

I was surprised when he said that his guru was not more than human. In fact his wisdom mind should be that of an Arya Bodhisattva. In fact HE Tai Situpa goes into this in "Enthronement" although he also says that he himself is an ordinary being.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:32 am 
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Jinzang wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
Now that we're done judging him having walked in his shoes


I know what it's like to have a difficult childhood. My mother was schizophrenic. I don't think a difficult childhood excuses his behavior.


The point I'm trying to make is...everyone is different. There's always someone mentally tougher than someone else. It doesn't mean that becomes the standard by which we make assumptions of others.

For every positive trait you have, you will also have some negative ones....that doesn't give me or anyone else the right to highlight and browbeat your negative traits or anyone else's for that matter. At the end of the day, life is tough and people have moments of weakness. I don't see how claims of superiority are of any relevance or of help at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:24 am 
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Having worked with kids that have suffered sexual assault/abuse the fact that he turned to drugs and alcohol makes no impression on me whatsoever. It is incredibly common to engage in self destructive behaviour after sexual assault (rape).

As for not having the problem in the first place, what is the next step? To blame him for having been sexually abused (raped)?

Get real people! Here is a kid whose father died when he was 9 years old, who was then thrown into a bunch monastaries, got raped and whose tutor then tried to kill him by knifeing him. And you are harping on him for having used drugs and alcohol??? I'm surprised he hasn't tried to commit suicide yet!

A little of that "theoretical" Buddhist compassion and a lot less judgement may be in line here. Walk the frackin' walk people!!!

Sheeeesh!
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:22 am 
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Every time I hear of monastic sexual abuse, or abuse by those with a vow of celibacy, I really wonder if a vow that is presumably there to remove temptation to indulge in worldy pleasures seems instead to cause more problems for some who take it.

These days the victims may not only have the mental problems to contend with but also HIV etc. There is abuse of monks by monks, of nuns by monks, of children etc etc.

In the UK it is still possible for anyone to call themselves by any religious title they fancy such as Reverend, Geshe, etc. and to run classes for children. We had a case locally where someone with an online ordination and dog collar managed to abuse several children. I exposed the nature of the ease of online ordinations and got national press coverage etc. but when we have so much abuse going on in 'official' religions, there's surely much more to be done in all societies to prevent it.

I've no evidence that sexual abuse in monasteries is worse than in lay society, but it seems a worse thing amongst those holding vows. I do know people who revered their teachers and were also deeply affected when they were discovered to be abusing their position, so the ripples can spread very far.

I do admire the way many who are now Gurus have overcome very tough circumstances. It's illogical, I know, but somehow I feel that someone who has experienced some of the worst experiences a human can undergo, is more equipped to teach.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:44 am 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Every time I hear of monastic sexual abuse, or abuse by those with a vow of celibacy, I really wonder if a vow that is presumably there to remove temptation to indulge in worldy pleasures seems instead to cause more problems for some who take it.

These days the victims may not only have the mental problems to contend with but also HIV etc. There is abuse of monks by monks, of nuns by monks, of children etc etc.

I've no evidence that sexual abuse in monasteries is worse than in lay society, but it seems a worse thing amongst those holding vows. I do know people who revered their teachers and were also deeply affected when they were discovered to be abusing their position, so the ripples can spread very far.
I agree. I also agree with Kalu Rinpoche's view on monks. Recall that Shakyamuni's monks were working within the Brahmanist system of spiritual quests during middle age. Many of them had already had sex and children and willingly threw themselves in a world separate from the outside world. However, allowing every lama to have a consort could open the door for other kinds of abuse so I don't know...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:46 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Having worked with kids that have suffered sexual assault/abuse the fact that he turned to drugs and alcohol makes no impression on me whatsoever. It is incredibly common to engage in self destructive behaviour after sexual assault (rape).

As for not having the problem in the first place, what is the next step? To blame him for having been sexually abused (raped)?

Get real people! Here is a kid whose father died when he was 9 years old, who was then thrown into a bunch monastaries, got raped and whose tutor then tried to kill him by knifeing him. And you are harping on him for having used drugs and alcohol??? I'm surprised he hasn't tried to commit suicide yet!

A little of that "theoretical" Buddhist compassion and a lot less judgement may be in line here. Walk the frackin' walk people!!!

Sheeeesh!
:namaste:


:good:

What I imagine must be so difficult for these boys/young men when they have been recognised as tulkus of lamas who had large western followers, such as the case of Kalu Rinpoche, is that not only are they catapulted into the world of shady institutional power struggles and hypocrisy within their own culture but also into providing for the needs and expectations of thousands of westerners, needs which often are emotional and expectations that are often unrealistic.

I watched, over the web, Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi give his talk at Lerab Ling a few months ago. Whilst I personally have no reason to doubt that he is an authentic tulku and has great potential, he was still an eighteen year old adolescent being paraded around the world with no small amount of hype and hyperbole surrounding the tour, and seeming slightly uncomfortable and nervous sitting on a high throne amidst a sea of projections and expectations. To subject someone to these expectations at such a young age seems to me an odd expression of devotion.

It all makes me feel rather uncomfortable about the celebrity status that is pushed onto these young men. And when they do make mistakes, we kind of get all self righteous about the fact they should know better, when all they are doing is not living up to expectations others have put on them.

Perhaps what we are experiencing with Kalu Rinpoche is actually a timely lesson in how we approach the whole tulku issue, teachers, and devotion itself. And perhaps breaking the Omerta code and telling the world of what often goes on under the golden roofs of these big institutions isn't such a bad thing either. We are going to see more of that, I feel, from many places.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:59 pm 
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The unrealistic expectations that are placed on these young men is itself a form of abuse.

And taking the money of those who are full of those unrealistic expectations is yet another form of abuse.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Quote:
I watched, over the web, Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi give his talk at Lerab Ling a few months ago. Whilst I personally have no reason to doubt that he is an authentic tulku and has great potential, he was still an eighteen year old adolescent being paraded around the world with no small amount of hype and hyperbole surrounding the tour, and seeming slightly uncomfortable and nervous sitting on a high throne amidst a sea of projections and expectations.

Occupational hazards huh? Yes, I recall when he was in my country last year with the entourage, in his speech, he was looking somewhat uncomfortable and nervous on the high throne and quite a number of times reminding the audience not to compare him with the Old Master and that he is what he is, so let him a chance to prove it.... quite a simple young man with humility considering the attention he gets, I am sure he will carve out his own niche in due time...

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To subject someone to these expectations at such a young age seems to me an odd expression of devotion.

I guess this is what is known as the 'superstar devotion' huh? Any different from what some fans subject their fav artists to?
Oooh Rinpoche is this...! Oooh Rinpoche is that....! :coffee:

Quote:
And taking the money of those who are full of those unrealistic expectations is yet another form of abuse.

They say ignorance is no excuse huh? Not educating oneself is the greatest of self abuse they say...

I salute Kalu Rinpoche for his open and heroic honesty... I could learn something from that...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Actually Kalu Rinpoche will be a better teacher BECAUSE of all of these things he has gone through. So many teachers who have lived basically sheltered lives probably do not have a good idea on how to use the principles/teachings of the Dharma to relate to and help others.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Fa Dao wrote:
Actually Kalu Rinpoche will be a better teacher BECAUSE of all of these things he has gone through. So many teachers who have lived basically sheltered lives probably do not have a good idea on how to use the principles/teachings of the Dharma to relate to and help others.


People will also be less inclined to try and pull a fast one with Rinpoche as it's clear he has no problem in exposing those that are corrupt. It may also prevent him from ever being blackmailed - he now has the upper hand.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Good for him for giving the world a reality check about what the monastic system is really like. Namkhai Norbu's son says in the film "My Reincarnation" that the reason his father refused to send him to a monastery was because of all the abuse his father suffered as a child. A Western tulku says in Gesar Mukpo's film, "Tulku" that the monasteries are "cesspools" of hate, jealousy, violence and child abuse. People need to wake up and smell the coffee. These are medieval institutions run by medieval minds. Reform is long overdue, and children have no business living in an institution full of celibate adults. This is a problem not only in the Tibetan monasteries, but in Sri Lanka and Taiwan as well. It's time authorities put compassion into action and perhaps convert the "kiddie program" in the monasteries as day schools rather than boarding schools.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Tenzin1 wrote:
Good for him for giving the world a reality check about what the monastic system is really like. Namkhai Norbu's son says in the film "My Reincarnation" that the reason his father refused to send him to a monastery was because of all the abuse his father suffered as a child. A Western tulku says in Gesar Mukpo's film, "Tulku" that the monasteries are "cesspools" of hate, jealousy, violence and child abuse. People need to wake up and smell the coffee. These are medieval institutions run by medieval minds. Reform is long overdue, and children have no business living in an institution full of celibate adults. This is a problem not only in the Tibetan monasteries, but in Sri Lanka and Taiwan as well. It's time authorities put compassion into action and perhaps convert the "kiddie program" in the monasteries as day schools rather than boarding schools.


I agree it is time the authorities put compassion into action.

A Tibetan Monk who came to the West to set up a Dharma centre really upset a lot of his students when he started telling us all about what went on in his Monastery back in India.No sexual abuse was mentioned but he did talk about a lot of terrible beatings that went on. :?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:15 pm 
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kirtu wrote:
He just turned 21 and many things could be happening. What's going on could be the expression of wisdom appropriate to the circumstances.

I was surprised when he said that his guru was not more than human. In fact his wisdom mind should be that of an Arya Bodhisattva. In fact HE Tai Situpa goes into this in "Enthronement" although he also says that he himself is an ordinary being.

Kirt


Is Tai Situpa the teacher of Kalu Rinpoche, and is he the one who allegedly wanted to kill him?


Last edited by AlexanderS on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Fa Dao wrote:
Actually Kalu Rinpoche will be a better teacher BECAUSE of all of these things he has gone through. So many teachers who have lived basically sheltered lives probably do not have a good idea on how to use the principles/teachings of the Dharma to relate to and help others.


"Wisdom comes alone through suffering."
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:05 pm 
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AlexanderS wrote:
kirtu wrote:
He just turned 21 and many things could be happening. What's going on could be the expression of wisdom appropriate to the circumstances.

I was surprised when he said that his guru was not more than human. In fact his wisdom mind should be that of an Arya Bodhisattva. In fact HE Tai Situpa goes into this in "Enthronement" although he also says that he himself is an ordinary being.

Kirt


Is Tai Situpa the teacher of Kalu Rinpoche, and is he the one who allegedly wanted to kill him?


No, Bokar Rinpoche was the root Guru of Kalu Rinpoche. The one who tried to kill him was his tutor. No idea who he was referring to. Not to Tai Situpa or Bokar for sure though.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Tenzin1 wrote:
A Western tulku says in Gesar Mukpo's film, "Tulku" that the monasteries are "cesspools" of hate, jealousy, violence and child abuse.


I don't remember him saying child abuse.

Quote:
It's time authorities put compassion into action and perhaps convert the "kiddie program" in the monasteries as day schools rather than boarding schools.


That's true.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:48 am 
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When he came to Santa Fe I had the chance to meet with him personally and to go to a public lecture. I should note at least 60% of the people at the lecture had been students of the previous Kalu Rinpoche.

He was very open, and told his story to the group, but he said it all with a bit more humor than in the video. He was very witty and told everyone to "stop being so Buddhist". He kept saying, "I'm the real Kalu Rinpoche, don't look at the magazines!" He also said, "my previous incarnation built centers all over the world, but I'm going to tear them down." He also played down his experience in his 3 year retreat, and said he had very little to offer aside from "friendship on the path". As much as he plays himself down, I felt a very strong blessing, and this was noted by the people I was with. Also, some of my friends, who had taken refuge with the previous Kalu Rinpoche, said he his radical approach was familiar to them.

After 15 years doing committed practice, and listening to my teachers, and doing my own research, I have also come to the conclusion that the Tibetan monastic system is a feudalistic power structure. I can also see how the monk/nun system should be revamped in a way where the children in the monasteries can get a real education and have the potential to do more with their lives.

I think it takes a lot of courage for a person in such a position, the only Rinpoche in the Shangpa tradition (not Kagyu by the way), to break down the structure that would hold him up so high. He is a threat to certain people and they would like to see him stopped.

I should also add that there was a very large rainbow coming down right onto the lecture hall, seen by a friend of mine.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:40 pm 
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Just a clarification-- Shangpa Kagyu has historically been a transmission lineage of practice and instruction for centuries, and was incorporated into the institutions of the Karma Kagyu, Sakya, Jonangpa, Gelukpa, and even some Nyingma centers.
There aren't really any specifically "Shangpa" rinpoches, per se. There are only Rinpoches who stress or practice Shangpa methods and instructions. It's the same, really, with all the institutional lineages--even the Karmapas-the first recognized Tulku--lineage and the basis of the Karma Kagyu "institution,"-- and His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and Sakya Trizin, have practiced or stressed various instructional/practice lineages throughout their incarnations, in addition to upholding their "Institution's" traditions.....to greater or lesser degree.

I know there's been some activity regarding "institutionalizing" the Shangpa Kagyu recently, but in the previous Kalu Rinpoche's time, though he was autonomous to a degree, he was also very much part of the Karma Kagyu institution.

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