for Abhidharma analysts

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for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:40 am

What happens when we listen to music ?
Why does music change our mental state?
How does it happen exactly?
In short, what is music?
Last edited by Aemilius on Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Astus » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:17 pm

Sounds (sound-consciousness) associated with pleasurable (or painful, or neutral) feelings generating attachment (or aversion, or disinterest).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Aemilius » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:41 pm

That is a start. But then in the next instance of consciousness the sound can be interpreted as music, by the seventh consciousness, so that it is not interpreted as a sound of a drill hammer for example.
That still doesn't explain why there is a change in one's mental state, in relation to sounds that are categorized as music.
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Astus » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:27 pm

Music is not an ultimate truth (in the abhidharmic sense) but an interpretation of the mind of specified series of sounds, a conventional truth. What you identify as music is conditioned by the culture and one's aesthetic taste.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby White Lotus » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:49 pm

''in the end you do not know'' (patriarch Chin).
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:17 pm

Aemilius wrote:That is a start. But then in the next instance of consciousness the sound can be interpreted as music, by the seventh consciousness, so that it is not interpreted as a sound of a drill hammer for example.
A melodious piece from the masters of drill hammer music Einsturzende Neubaten http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUHCl4TUdTA when I saw them live they were using old oil drums, angle grinders, jack hammers, pieces of steel, etc...

Sounds associated with pleasant feeling causing attachment!!! Spot on!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:50 pm

" Sounds associated with pleasant feeling causing attachment" does not define music.

There can be attachment, aversion or indifference to sound, that is different from attachment, aversion or indiffrence to music.

You must be able to distinguish between attachment to sound and concentration on sound. Concentration on sound would equal concentration on a kasina (a colour sphere). It would thus lead to a concentrated mind, which means a mental state of a dhyana, i.e. Rupalaloka, before that it would lead to a mental state of higher levels in Kamaloka.

In Kamaloka there are sounds (and music) associated with hell realms, preta realms, human realms, animal realms and deva realms.

It does happen that you hear an indistinct sound, your mind thinks "music!" and experiences it accordingly. After a while you realize that in fact it is the neighbour's machine tool, your mind thinks "noise!", and your experience of music vanishes in a fraction of a second.
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:06 pm

It does happen that you hear an indistinct sound, your mind thinks "music!" and experiences it accordingly. After a while you realize that in fact it is the neighbour's machine tool, your mind thinks "noise!", and your experience of music vanishes in a fraction of a second.
Not if you are into Industrial music, in which case noise is music.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:38 pm

It is not that simple, art and music have a long history in Europe. Such things as Dadaism etc are a development, or a manifestation, in the cultural phenomenon of art. Dadaism would not exist without everything that was before it. It gets its meaning from the existence of art in general, from the cultural habit of art, from the habit and tradition of music.
The use of noise and industrial sounds in music probably began with Dadaism in 1920's.

The main point is that music is a very subjective thing. Whether something is liked and valued and described as music depends very much on the person who listens to it.
We could say that music is a product of one's own consciousness. One's own subtle consciousness projects music on a sign, this sign triggers the experience of a particular set of sounds as music.
The "sign" includes various social and cultural factors that are necessary components in the situation for the arising of music.
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:24 pm

Aemilius wrote:The main point is that music is a very subjective thing. Whether something is liked and valued and described as music depends very much on the person who listens to it.
I never said anything to the contrary.
We could say that music is a product of one's own consciousness. One's own subtle consciousness projects music on a sign, this sign triggers the experience of a particular set of sounds as music. The "sign" includes various social and cultural factors that are necessary components in the situation for the arising of music.
Did I say anywhere that I disagree?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: A Question for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Aemilius » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:27 pm

No you didn't, but we are here working toward a buddhist definition of music, you see ?

And further, if there is a performance of some experimental or avant garde music in a concert hall, when the listeners have come and prepared themselves for the occasion, and paid for the event, and if they then hear a piece of contemporary music that uses various industrial or "noice" elements, it does not mean that they do not experience noice at all during the rest of their life !!
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Re: for Abhidharma analysts

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:37 pm

I think music is a form of Relative Truth, and it is Parikalpita in the Three Natures of Yogachara thought.

There are different musical theories in the world, we have the seven modes of Greek musical theory: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian etc...
Then we have the classical Indian music, which has its northern and southern branches, in the southern branch, also called Carnatic music, we have 72 scales or ragas with names for each of them. (Today the carnatic music theory says there actually are 7,2 million scales, of which roughly 300 are in use!)
And we have the Arabic musical theory, which is also highly developed. Here too it happened that the arabs took the ancient greek musical system, preserved it and developed it further. At the same time in Europe only two scales or modes were in use, the Major and the Minor scales.

The main thing is that there is a correspondence between emotional states and different musical scales. That is to say the seven modes of Greek theory, the 72 scales of Carnatic musical theory, or the different musical scales of Arabic music.
In classical european music Major tonality is considered happy and Minor tonality is considered sad.
In other musical theories there are correspondingly more emotional states that are being considered, like the seven greek Modes, and the 72 basic Ragas of carnatic music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_music
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