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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:27 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa).


Adriano Clemente translates 'rigpa' as 'presence' in the book "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State." Is this the same as mindfulness?

Along those same lines, after my meditation, I have a sense of calm relaxation. No thought or sensation disturbs me. There is placidness and presence. Even when talking, knowledge of this placidness remains. Is this the natural state or rigpa?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:38 pm 
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mint wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa).


Adriano Clemente translates 'rigpa' as 'presence' in the book "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State." Is this the same as mindfulness?

Along those same lines, after my meditation, I have a sense of calm relaxation. No thought or sensation disturbs me. There is placidness and presence. Even when talking, knowledge of this placidness remains. Is this the natural state or rigpa?


Hi

ChNN uses the term presence for what other people translated as mindfulness; and instant presence (rig pa skad cig ma) for being present in the stage of knowledge of one's primordial state. It is important to differentiate the two terms. Mindfullness is not rigpa.

N

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Hi

ChNN uses the term presence for what other people translated as mindfulness; and instant presence (rig pa skad cig ma) for being present in the stage of knowledge of one's primordial state. It is important to differentiate the two terms. Mindfullness is not rigpa.

N


So, presence is not mindfulness? Experientially, they would seem to be the same thing, I would think.

Is mindfulness the natural state?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Presence is mindfulness. Instant presence is being present in the stage of knowledge of one's primordial state. They are not the same.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:53 pm 
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mint wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Hi

ChNN uses the term presence for what other people translated as mindfulness; and instant presence (rig pa skad cig ma) for being present in the stage of knowledge of one's primordial state. It is important to differentiate the two terms. Mindfullness is not rigpa.

N


So, presence is not mindfulness? Experientially, they would seem to be the same thing, I would think.

Is mindfulness the natural state?


Presence = mindfulness
Instant presence = rigpa.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:55 pm 
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mint wrote:
So, presence is not mindfulness? Experientially, they would seem to be the same thing, I would think.

Is mindfulness the natural state?


All forms of conceptual mindfulness hold an object. It may be an object of the senses or - at the most refined level - simply the concept of 'nowness'.

When resting in the natural state a meditator is not in a conceptual state and so is not holding onto anything at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Presence is mindfulness. Instant presence is being present in the stage of knowledge of one's primordial state. They are not the same.


Namdrol wrote:
Presence = mindfulness
Instant presence = rigpa.


:juggling:

Which one is the natural state?

(Sorry.)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Paul wrote:
All forms of conceptual mindfulness hold an object. It may be an object of the senses or - at the most refined level - simply the concept of 'nowness'.

When resting in the natural state a meditator is not in a conceptual state and so is not holding onto anything at all.


So, the natural state is in-between mindfulness and rigpa?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Mindfullness is merely conceptualizing the present moment.

But our real nature is beyond conceptualizing time.

Correct me if I'm wrong :shrug:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:57 pm 
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mint wrote:
Paul wrote:
All forms of conceptual mindfulness hold an object. It may be an object of the senses or - at the most refined level - simply the concept of 'nowness'.

When resting in the natural state a meditator is not in a conceptual state and so is not holding onto anything at all.


So, the natural state is in-between mindfulness and rigpa?


No. Rigpa = knowing the natural state = experiencing the nature of mind.

Mindfulness (such as experienced in the mindfulness of breathing type meditation) is conceptual, maintaining or holding a mental object/concept. Holding concepts means your mind is in a confused, grasping, dualistic state because it is within the framework of self/I/subject - object -action. This is ma-rigpa, or ignorance.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:01 pm 
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:smile:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:40 am 
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Paul wrote:
mint wrote:

So, the natural state is in-between mindfulness and rigpa?


No. Rigpa = knowing the natural state = experiencing the nature of mind.

Mindfulness (such as experienced in the mindfulness of breathing type meditation) is conceptual, maintaining or holding a mental object/concept. Holding concepts means your mind is in a confused, grasping, dualistic state because it is within the framework of self/I/subject - object -action. This is ma-rigpa, or ignorance.


So, only the natural state is the natural state? I imagine that state being quite infant-like.

Rigpa = knowing this natural state. Does that mean that you know that you're functioning in the natural state, or just recognition of the natural state?

Mindfulness = presence. But why is rigpa known as instant presence? When you say 'instant,' I think fast food. :lol:

No wonder you need transmission for this stuff. :? I thought I was smart, and the more I read and the more questions I ask the dumber I feel. But, I guess intellect is the reason I'm so deep in ma rigpa.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Read carefully about the three transmissions, oral, symbolic and direct. The third is what will get you in the primordial state and the first two will help you when the time for recognition comes. This not something you can imagine as being infant like, adult like or innocent like or anything of the sort. It's beyond imagination. Whatever you can imagine about it will only become an obstacle.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Hi Mint,

The technicalities of Dzogchen are quite clear.

Our nature = inseperability of clarity and emptiness.

Clarity = the pristine mirror
emptiness = in this specific Dzogchen usage, just means that the mirror is merely an analogy

Rigpa = knowledge of our nature

mint wrote:
Mindfulness = presence. But why is rigpa known as instant presence? When you say 'instant,' I think fast food. :lol:


In the first case, you are bound to the mind's conceptualizations/contrivations of the present moment. Or the mind will even conceptualize Dzogchen teachings themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong :shrug:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Read carefully about the three transmissions, oral, symbolic and direct. The third is what will get you in the primordial state and the first two will help you when the time for recognition comes. This not something you can imagine as being infant like, adult like or innocent like or anything of the sort. It's beyond imagination. Whatever you can imagine about it will only become an obstacle.


So, paradoxically, I have to read more but, ultimately, the whole process is anti-intellectual. :thinking:


alwayson wrote:
Hi Mint,

The technicalities of Dzogchen are quite clear.

Our nature = inseperability of clarity and emptiness.

Clarity = the pristine mirror
emptiness = in this specific Dzogchen usage, just means that the mirror is merely an analogy

Rigpa = knowledge of our nature



That makes sense to me. :thanks:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:39 pm 
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Six Words of Advice
༄༅། །གནད་ཀྱི་གཟེར་དྲུག།
nä kyi zer drug
six essential key points
by Tilopa
ཏི་ལོ་པ་

translated by Ken McLeod

མི་མནོ་
mi mno
Don’t recall Let go of what has passed

མི་བསམ་
mi bsam
Don’t imagine Let go of what may come

མི་སེམས་
mi sems
Don’t think Let go of what is happening now

མི་དཔྱོད་
mi dpyod
Don’t examine Don’t try to figure anything out

མི་སྒོམ་
mi sgom
Don’t control Don’t try to make anything happen

རང་སར་བཞག་
rang sar bzhag
Rest Relax, right now, and rest

This advice consists of only six words in Tibetan. The translation to the left in bold letters was
developed to capture its brevity and directness. Some people prefer the translation to the right.
(prepared as pdf-file by Michael K. Nisch)

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Last edited by Silent Bob on Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:56 pm 
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༄༅། །གནད་ཀྱི་གཟེར་དྲུག།
Six Points.


མི་མནོ་
Don't anticipate.

མི་བསམ་
Don't plan.

མི་སེམས་
Don't think.

མི་དཔྱོད་
mi dpyod
Don't analyze.

མི་སྒོམ་
mi sgom
Don't cultivate.

རང་སར་བཞག་
Stay where you are.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:24 pm 
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Thanks Bob and Namdrol. If only I could get those six points tattooed onto my retinas! :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:54 pm 
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mint wrote:
Thanks Bob and Namdrol. If only I could get those six points tattooed onto my retinas! :lol:

That would be going against a few of the points.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:00 pm 
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Going back to Kumbhaka Pranayama or Vase Breathing, etc. that I'd mentioned in the Dzogchen Community thread, is not the 'achieving' of the above Six-Points—at least in the context of the Eight Yanas below Dzogchen—dependent on Kumbhaka Pranayama?

Perhaps Lama Yeshe's The Bliss of Inner Fire gives more detailed instructions specifically on the pulling/pushing of lower-Prana/Wind/Vayu and upper/higher-Prana/Wind/Vayu....


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