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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:30 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:

Last Legends comment that Dharma is conditioned by ignorance didn't sound quite right to me .
:namaste:


From the Kosha:

4b-c. Conditioned dharmas, with the exception of the Path, are
impure.

With the exception of the Path, all conditioned dharmas are
defiled.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:36 pm 
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I imagine that this is referring to the eight worldly dharmas (the hope of happiness fame praise and gain, the fear of suffering disgrace blame and loss) rather than capital "D" Dharma?
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:01 am 
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The Path (capital P) is referring to the Dharma

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:56 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Dharma Atma wrote:
As for me I believe Dharma itself is conditioned.


Reality is not conditioned. The Dharma comes from recognition of reality. So while the expression of Dharma may be subject to change and adaptation, reality is always there to be perceived. Further, all Dharma teachings stem from Dzogchen. Dzogchen will be the first teaching in any given eon and the last.

N


Reality is not conditioned? How does this fit in with dependent origination?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:06 am 
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Aemilius wrote:
This subject exists, though maybe not so evidently at first glance. There are profecies about the future in Sravakayana, in Mahayana, and in the Tantrayana Dharma. What I mean by End times Dharma is that you think that because it is the End times of the Dharma therefore..., -here follow all kinds of different views and different practices depending whether you are a Nichiren, Pure Land, Nyingma, or follower of other schools and other doctrines.


And there is good reason for this line of thought. As time progresses the power and quantity of defilements in humanity is increasing. Hence, there are greater hindrances to practising the path. In our present day we also have to contend with a toxic environment, created basically out of human greed and ignorance of consequences, thus hindering even our physical faculties.

I wonder if there is a correlation between the loss of memory abilities and industrialization along with all of its ill effects. In the old days it was common for people to memorize vast canons of literature and retain it for life. In the present day such an ability will have you called "gifted" when in previous times it wasn't so uncommon. People will suggest this is just due to television, the internet or some other contemporary development, but I think the more likely primary cause is all the toxins we and our brains are constantly exposed to.

Again, all those toxins are a result of human greed and ignorance, which further fuels degeneracy.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am 
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I tend to disagree H.

I think retention descends into the aspect of consciousness realm. In that it may be hindered in a conscious sense by toxin, but it is really not hindered in a larger sense.

Memorizing such large pieces of texts things of that sort it may enter the grey area of unconscious.
I memorize quite unwittingly vast amounts of music and other things. When elicited they present but not before.
So the subconscious is tapped it is up to the circumstance to elicit it.

We can of course with means create circumstance to elicit the unconscious...that which retains everything.
Observing peoples with demetia I see drips and drabs of things which are not accounted for considering the advanced state of degeneracy of their brains....it seems to me with human there is a grey between conscious and unconscious which may be elicited by circumstance. Circumstance to a degree able to be created in things of awareness.

So conscious retention I would say yes. unconscious retention no.
Those in days past...that may be a example of unconscious retention. I would not rule that out.
Interest and pleasure derived also have a hand in this thing of retention. Anything pleasurable we retain.

Other degeneracy as in the overall general populations lowering intelligence...I would agree it could be toxin.
Text if religious text it is...may put it into another area of retention other than conscious.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:23 am 
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Mr. G wrote:
The Path (capital P) is referring to the Dharma
The question was in reference to the conditioned dharmas mentioned in the quote.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:08 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
The Path (capital P) is referring to the Dharma
The question was in reference to the conditioned dharmas mentioned in the quote.
:namaste:


This quote?:

Quote:
Dharma is conditioned by ignorance


I would disagree saying Vasubandhu states that Dharma is conditioned but free from defilements:

What are the pure dharmas?

5a-b. The undefiled truth of the Path and the three unconditioned
things are pure.

What are the three unconditioned things?

5c. Space and the two types of extinctions.


Perhaps a Dzogchen POV is different?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:16 pm 
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No silly, this one viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6031&start=20#p70063
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:52 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:


No, it doesn't refer to the 8 worldly dharmas, but phenomenon.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Thank you!
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:54 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
So would it be correct to say that the actual teachings (the "mark" of Dharma as they are referred to in the Diamond PrajnaParamita Sutra) are conditioned and thus impermanent but that the Dharma itself is unconditioned?

Yes, for Dharma has its conditioned and unconditioned form. It's been already told about.
gregkavarnos wrote:
Last Legends comment that Dharma is conditioned by ignorance didn't sound quite right to me.

The outer forms of Dharma ("conditioned level") are conditioned per se, i.e. objectively. They are conditioned with time and space, so to say.
catmoon wrote:
Reality is not conditioned?

It's not conditioned. The minds of sentient beings make conditions.
Reality just is, it is now and in this moment. It doesn't know future or past. It just is as it's been for... ever.
I think Namdrol meant something like that. :spy:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:11 pm 
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There is delusion, there is Buddha.

However, Buddha is empty of self.

There is delusion, there is Dharma. If there is no delusion, Dharma is not necessary. Dharma itself is has no inherent existence. Dharma here referring to Buddhist teachings. Buddha then is no birth no death. But what Buddha experiences or sees is something we can only speculate with conception which still falls under the 6th consciousness.

Bodhidharma said there is no Buddha.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Mr. G wrote:
From the Kosha:

With the exception of the Path, all conditioned dharmas are
defiled.

:good:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Well people, to avoid future confusion let us stay with the habit of writing the unconditioned Dharma with a capital "D" and conditioned dharmas (ie phenomena) with a little "d".
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:53 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Dharma Atma wrote:
As for me I believe Dharma itself is conditioned.


Reality is not conditioned. The Dharma comes from recognition of reality. So while the expression of Dharma may be subject to change and adaptation, reality is always there to be perceived. Further, all Dharma teachings stem from Dzogchen. Dzogchen will be the first teaching in any given eon and the last.

N


Reality is not conditioned? How does this fit in with dependent origination?



Reality i.e. suchness, emptiness, etc., is not conditioned. Things arise in dependence because of the reality of things. Things are conditioned, but the reality of things is not.

N

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:

Reality i.e. suchness, emptiness, etc., is not conditioned. Things arise in dependence because of the reality of things. Things are conditioned, but the reality of things is not.

N



Ah, I just tripped over some terminology then.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:44 am 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
I tend to disagree H.

I think retention descends into the aspect of consciousness realm. In that it may be hindered in a conscious sense by toxin, but it is really not hindered in a larger sense.

Memorizing such large pieces of texts things of that sort it may enter the grey area of unconscious.
I memorize quite unwittingly vast amounts of music and other things. When elicited they present but not before.
So the subconscious is tapped it is up to the circumstance to elicit it.

We can of course with means create circumstance to elicit the unconscious...that which retains everything.
Observing peoples with demetia I see drips and drabs of things which are not accounted for considering the advanced state of degeneracy of their brains....it seems to me with human there is a grey between conscious and unconscious which may be elicited by circumstance. Circumstance to a degree able to be created in things of awareness.

So conscious retention I would say yes. unconscious retention no.
Those in days past...that may be a example of unconscious retention. I would not rule that out.
Interest and pleasure derived also have a hand in this thing of retention. Anything pleasurable we retain.

Other degeneracy as in the overall general populations lowering intelligence...I would agree it could be toxin.
Text if religious text it is...may put it into another area of retention other than conscious.


It certainly means conscious memorizing. The culture was to a large extent oral and thus dependent on memory. Even when writing existed, like in India, memorizing was the norm. Writing down of sutras began quite late. Before that sutras had been in an exclusively oral form for five hundred years or more. There must have been special techniques of memorizing, and there stil are, at least some remnants of it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:15 am 
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I was recently watching some History channel garbagery, as I sometimes do, and found an "investigation" of the Georgia Guidestones. Well, actually, it was a good investigation, although it is basically trying to be pretty entertaining and it's obvious. They basically concluded the Georgia Guidestones were nothing sinister and that there was no evidence of anything to worry about, really. However, in the process, they did talk to some astro-scientist about the sun and he did say that larger than normal solar flares would be happening in 2012. Basically, the people who claim the world is going to be massively changed and many lives lost say that it will be a natural event, somehow caused by the sun and the earth, with both coasts sinking into the ocean. As a NYer, I will be drowned in a year from now according to this theory, which would suck.

Not TERRIBLY worried about this, but actually, I would prefer to be out of NY around mid-December straight through Jan 5th or so just in case. Would be a horrible way to die, really. I doubt I could go peacefully and not be thrown into a crappy rebirth under such circumstances.

Just found this:
"The Tibetan calendar is so similar to the Mayan that traditional scholars now speculate that they share a common origin."
from http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_3.htm

...any truth to this? Or just someone taking huge liberties to try to tie everything together?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:11 am 
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This forum is a physical manifestation of the Dharma Ending Age!

:cry:

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