Understanding Tathata

[Mr. G]

Why are there so many definitions of Tathata and how does one know when to use each one when reading a text?

tathata = dependent origination

tathata = dharmata

tathata = see the truth of all things, to see the reality of the things. The wisdom arising to the person who practises insight meditation.

"Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" describes the concept: "In its very origin suchness is of itself endowed with sublime attributes. It manifests the highest wisdom which shines throughout the world, it has true knowledge and a mind resting simply in its own being. It is eternal, blissful, its own self-being and the purest simplicity; it is invigorating, immutable, free... Because it possesses all these attributes and is deprived of nothing, it is designated both as the Womb of Tathagata and the Dharma Body of Tathagata."

[Huifeng]

Why are there so many definitions of Tathata and how does one know when to use each one when reading a text?

tathata = dependent origination

tathata = dharmata

tathata = see the truth of all things, to see the reality of the things. The wisdom arising to the person who practises insight meditation.

"Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" describes the concept: "In its very origin suchness is of itself endowed with sublime attributes. It manifests the highest wisdom which shines throughout the world, it has true knowledge and a mind resting simply in its own being. It is eternal, blissful, its own self-being and the purest simplicity; it is invigorating, immutable, free... Because it possesses all these attributes and is deprived of nothing, it is designated both as the Womb of Tathagata and the Dharma Body of Tathagata."

They are all the same thing, don't be distracted by the different words.

~~ Huifeng

[White Lotus]

there are many names for 'it', tathata is one of them. another is emptiness. it is 012345 etc, north, east, south, west. it takes all positions and yet none.

taste the 'i am' and you will taste this emptiness, this tathata. it is non empty, just this ordinary every day feeling. as you get used to it you will see that what is within you is continuous with what is without (objects).

one need not only speak of tathata or emptiness, one can call it ordinary awareness, every day mind, this every day feeling... our natural way of being. nothing at all profound, no fire works. like the taste of water.

best wishes, Tom.

(ps. hope this is helpful).

[Mr. G]

Why are there so many definitions of Tathata and how does one know when to use each one when reading a text?

tathata = dependent origination

tathata = dharmata

tathata = see the truth of all things, to see the reality of the things. The wisdom arising to the person who practises insight meditation.

"Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" describes the concept: "In its very origin suchness is of itself endowed with sublime attributes. It manifests the highest wisdom which shines throughout the world, it has true knowledge and a mind resting simply in its own being. It is eternal, blissful, its own self-being and the purest simplicity; it is invigorating, immutable, free... Because it possesses all these attributes and is deprived of nothing, it is designated both as the Womb of Tathagata and the Dharma Body of Tathagata."

They are all the same thing, don't be distracted by the different words.

~~ Huifeng

Hi Venerable Huifeng,

In my mind there is a disconnect because if I were to equate dependent origination to how the "Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" defines Tathata, it seems strange. It makes Tathata seem like some form of active compassionate intelligence.

[White Lotus]

Tathata is an active compassionate intelligence, it is all things and encompasses all. it is emptiness, fullness, mind, true self, being, existence, time, the moment, the i am.

the mahayanasradhotpadasastra says that this emptiness that is tathata is non empty in that in it is the full spectrum of all noble qualities... i would say that these qualities are in themselves empty.

this feeling within you now is emptiness, this feeling within you now is tathata. it feels non empty and so has been called non empty emptiness.

dependent origination is simply the dance of consciousness, tathata. the arising and cessation of all things through dependence.

i hope that Ven. Hui Feng is able to further explain, he will be better able to explain Tathata to you, but just to remember that tathata is everything. all is Mind/Emptiness/Tathata. (the same thing).

best wishes, Tom.

[Mr. G]

Hi White Lotus,

What I fail to see is why dependent origination should have anything to do with an active compassionate intelligence. I don't see it's relationship.

[Ngawang Drolma]

Why are there so many definitions of Tathata and how does one know when to use each one when reading a text?

tathata = dependent origination

tathata = dharmata

tathata = see the truth of all things, to see the reality of the things. The wisdom arising to the person who practises insight meditation.

"Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" describes the concept: "In its very origin suchness is of itself endowed with sublime attributes. It manifests the highest wisdom which shines throughout the world, it has true knowledge and a mind resting simply in its own being. It is eternal, blissful, its own self-being and the purest simplicity; it is invigorating, immutable, free... Because it possesses all these attributes and is deprived of nothing, it is designated both as the Womb of Tathagata and the Dharma Body of Tathagata."

They are all the same thing, don't be distracted by the different words.

~~ Huifeng

Hi Venerable Huifeng,

In my mind there is a disconnect because if I were to equate dependent origination to how the "Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana" defines Tathata, it seems strange. It makes Tathata seem like some form of active compassionate intelligence.

Hi Mr. G and Huifeng,

Wouldn't that be more of an inner experience as opposed to an intellectual one?

Pardon my ignorance.

Thanks,
Laura

[Mr. G]

Wouldn't that be more of an inner experience as opposed to an intellectual one?

That's an interesting point too. I guess that's why I'm trying to understand if, and when the definition changes depending upon the context.

[Ngawang Drolma]

Wouldn't that be more of an inner experience as opposed to an intellectual one?

That's an interesting point too. I guess that's why I'm trying to understand if, and when the definition changes depending upon the context.

So it would seem. But Ven. Huifeng said it's only a matter of semantics.

Best,
Laura

[Huifeng]

Personally, I wouldn't take the Awakening of Faith as a definitive teaching, but as an expedient one.

Look for the central chapters of the small Prajnaparamita sutra in 8 000 verses;
and the center of the Sadaprarudita avadana at the end of same.

~~ Huifeng

[Sherab]

tathata = dependent origination

tathata = dharmata

tathata = see the truth of all things, to see the reality of the things. The wisdom arising to the person who practises insight meditation.

Tathagata is tathata + gata, or gone to tathata.
If tathata = dependent origination, then Tathagata is One who has gone to Dependent Origination. What does DO mean in this context then?

Similarly, if tathata = dharmata, then Tathagata = Dharmagata or One who has gone to the essence of dharma/phenomenon. If essence of phenomenon = emptiness and emptiness is not a mere nothing, then what is dharmata?

Similarly, if tathata = wisdom seeing reality of things, then Tathagata is One who has go to Wisdom seeing reality of things. How can one GO to a wisdom? Also wisdom seeing reality of things seems to imply a subject-object dichotomy. If there is a subject-object dichotomy, then there is a self-other dichotomy.

If DO is synonymous with wisdom seeing reality of things, then does DO have or not have a subject-object dichotomy? Similarly, if dharmata is synonymous with wisdom seeing reality of things, does dharmata has subject-object dichotomy?

..... just some food for thought ....

[Mr. G]

Personally, I wouldn't take the Awakening of Faith as a definitive teaching, but as an expedient one.

Look for the central chapters of the small Prajnaparamita sutra in 8 000 verses;
and the center of the Sadaprarudita avadana at the end of same.

~~ Huifeng

Makes much more sense now Venerable, thanks. I found the definition from the Awakening of Faith strange.

[White Lotus]

when you see more clearly, you will see that all things merge together. this is an intuitive seeing. all names and forms merge. one feels this mergence within oneself and outside oneself, within and without merge in the same sensation of emptiness/mind. one first becomes aware of this when one has access to the experience of ones 'own nature'. i say 'i am', since this is own nature. this 'i am' is experienced as unreal like, vapid like cloud on the summit of a cold mountain. (reminded of Tai Mo Sahn in Hong Kong).

Yes, Venerable Hui Feng, i would agree that the Mahayanasradhotpadasastra is not always helpful. it was apparently popular with Hung Jen before the time of the sixth patriarch, but i wonder whether Hui Neng was keen on it... adhereing more to the prajnaparamita sutras and a clear teaching of emptiness.

from the start there is not a thing, so where is there for any dust to cling... not a thing.

the mahayanasradhotpadasastra still sees something. i dont have a problem with this since i recognise that there is a conventional reality that we have to live in and engage with... however i see that fundamentally there is not even nothing.

yes, intuition is soooo important. we learn to analyse this ordinary awareness. i believe however that the non dual nature of things cannot be seen so long as there is an individual ego residing within. the lesser i gives way to the true self of 'own nature'. the 'i am' remains the same come what may.

no ignorance seen... only wisdom.

best wishes, Tom.

[Ngawang Drolma]

Personally, I wouldn't take the Awakening of Faith as a definitive teaching, but as an expedient one.

Look for the central chapters of the small Prajnaparamita sutra in 8 000 verses;
and the center of the Sadaprarudita avadana at the end of same.

~~ Huifeng

Makes much more sense now Venerable, thanks. I found the definition from the Awakening of Faith strange.

For me too. Thanks Venerable