Wine and Meat Offerings?

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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:05 pm

You want a beer with your burger?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You want a beer with your burger?


Always, and fries.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:09 pm

narraboth wrote:I totally agree that people should follow what their master said, but i disagree that it's about "view", otherwise it will be an attack to dza paltrul rinpoche and all other nyingma monasteries/centres/groups following his trandition (or 'book').

No, preventing offer meat (at least fresh meat) is not 'lower tantra' view, because you don't even need to talk about meat to lower tantra practioners, they just don't use it. It is out of compassion and proper conducts of buddhism. Maybe just like ChNN advicing his group to 'buy meats from as many animals as possible', it's out of compassion (not because the view is higher, otherwise meat from one animal and many animals should be equal isn't it :smile: ). I don't see there's right or wrong between the two methods (as i was quoting from two great masters), but it's really nothing to do with the views. I don't think dza paltrul rinpoche's view would be lower than many masters at anytime, but i very appreciate that he pointed out important things that people easily miss in so-called high views. But of course, if someone can see sh*t equally as tasty sausages, he can comfortably say whay he want to say.


What I am saying is that the view of lower tantra is that it is not correct to eat meat.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:43 pm

narraboth wrote:but ofcourse i have seen events that was with lots of meats and sausages, lots of wine and wiskey etc... can't comment on that really. I can only qoute what great Lonchenpa said in his works:
if a so-called yogi carelessly take alcohol and get drunk, he will surely fall to the lowest realm.
Mindful consumption without attachment or aversion is the whole idea of the practice. This mindful approach to sensory objects should then carry over into daily life. Like Kevin said
Right now is a ganapuja of sorts.
You could do a vegetarian, non-alcoholic puja with attachment to the taste of the vegan food and a smug sense of superiority that not having alcohol in your ganapuja is correct, unlike that of the "alcohol and meat brigade", in which case you have failed miserably in the practice.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:01 pm

I have a strong aversion to red wine, pizza and chocolate and will seek to overcome it by substituting it for the usual tsampa and tea.

I feel whisky with my pills would also help me as tea seems a bit too much of an attachment.

Am I getting there or should I eat my own head for dessert? It's low fat. LOL :)
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:57 pm

60% of the brain is fat. :lol:
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:38 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:60% of the brain is fat. :lol:


That's a damn good excuse for my BMI being so high! ;)

These days, as a Garuda, my diet is somewhat more serpentine! LOL :)

On topic, I'm with Greg on this one. The substances are transformed.

I'd even go so far as to say that the act of buying the meat in the first place (which I would normally condemn as creating the cause, the market, for future slaughter) has a totally different intention here, and in HYT the being obtaining the meat may also be seen as already transformed themselves and within that mandala.

I'm making a poor job of trying to explain, I'm afraid, by trying to avoid attaching a mundane description and also avoiding revelation of HYT etc.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:55 pm

I agree. Some people don't... I for one don't think too much about this issue. Still i think it won't kill anyone to drink a sip of wine or eating a piece of meat neither it will mean that such person is less compassionate, no matter the angle we approach this subject. People who think otherwise may be falling prey to fundamentalist dietary mentalities that have nothing to do with Vajrayana. And as this is a Vajrayana thing, we can't approach it with a common Mahayana mentality. Nobody is forced to practice Vajrayana. But once we do, we need to be careful about samayas, pure vision and all that.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:03 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I agree. Some people don't... I for one don't think too much about this issue. Still i think it won't kill anyone to drink a sip of wine or eating a piece of meat neither it will mean that such person is less compassionate, no matter the angle we approach this subject. People who think otherwise may be falling prey to fundamentalist dietary mentalities that have nothing to do with Vajrayana. And as this is a Vajrayana thing, we can't approach it with a common Mahayana mentality. Nobody is forced to practice Vajrayana. But once we do, we need to be careful about samayas, pure vision and all that.


Nail hit firmly on the head - Compassion.

Tantra without Bodhichitta and Compassion can degenerate so easily.

A mind filled with compassion cannot be swayed by attachment or aversion.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Thug4lyfe » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:32 pm

Jeez, cut down da cheezeburgr Yanks!!! Yous already got a reputation :P
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:40 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:I feel whisky with my pills would also help me as tea seems a bit too much of an attachment.
Given you are an Englishman, I reckon this is less of a joke than what it looks like at first glance! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Adamantine » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:59 am

Namdrol wrote:In this case, it is better for people to follow the advice of their individual teacher, rather than a teacher in a book. Every teacher has a different teaching because people are different and need different things.

N


I agree with this, but some of us of course have more than one teacher, and their advice may be contradictory on various topics..

One Lama may advise that meat is absolutely necessary, another may say it is all included in dutsi, so no need for excess meat that is killed for consumption, etc.

In general, when in Rome... I follow the conduct of the community I am with, and if I am alone I take a middle road.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby wisdom » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:39 pm

So it seems like the point is to overcome limitations. In this sense I am not limited in either drinking or eating meat. I've done both in great quantity in the past. Drinking and other forms of intoxication I saw eventually as empty, so stopped partaking in them. Meat I ate for 28 years. I stopped because one day I began to see animals as my kin, I stopped judging them based on appearances and mental capacity and started to see the Buddha in them. I enjoy the taste of meat actually, I refrain out of compassion. Its not that I see meat eating as impure, many things in nature eat meat. I don't think lions are impure demons for eating meat, for example.

If its about limitations, I should start with raw onions. I despise raw onions. They make me gag. When I eat a sandwich with onions in it, the first thing I think is that something in the sandwich is rotten, only to discover its just the onions. Then I should move on to things like pigs feet, tripe, heart, and so forth. I also hate whiskey, it also makes me feel nauseous, but not as bad as onions. Gin is pretty gross too. I worked in a wine bar for a year, I rather enjoy wine and understand it fairly well.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby wisdom » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:48 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I agree. Some people don't... I for one don't think too much about this issue. Still i think it won't kill anyone to drink a sip of wine or eating a piece of meat neither it will mean that such person is less compassionate, no matter the angle we approach this subject. People who think otherwise may be falling prey to fundamentalist dietary mentalities that have nothing to do with Vajrayana. And as this is a Vajrayana thing, we can't approach it with a common Mahayana mentality. Nobody is forced to practice Vajrayana. But once we do, we need to be careful about samayas, pure vision and all that.


I agree with this completely. In terms of eating meat I could easily do it out of compassion. If the practice is about the substance of meat itself, I would just cultivate strong Bodhicitta and eat the meat with the intention that this meat is providing me with sustenance and energy as a part of my Bodhicitta. This would allow the animals death and flesh to play a role in my seeking enlightenment as quickly as possible for the benefit of all beings.

I'm certainly not fundamentalist about it. I have cooked meat for my room mates and don't judge anyone for eating meat. Its a matter of view. They see animals as lesser creatures, inferior and by that logic, OK to kill and eat. They believe animals don't feel. I believe all living beings want peace and freedom from suffering, cows and humans alike. Its easy to see. Take any creature, trap it, and start hurting it. Its not going to just sit there and let you harm it. Its going to fight back and run away. Even bugs do this.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:53 pm

Well the thread has gone this way..... :smile:

As a similiarity I did for a year try a differing item each week, of unknown type. Fresh sheep blood from the dripping just killed sheep that was quite novel :smile:
After that I tried many differing diets, and now can I suspect eat anything.

But the choice then to me is not meat, as end product of this. Food is all about habit. Fine distinctions are present but really not all that important.
We eat this way we live longer.We eat this way we die shorter...but most of us we misuse this life anyway....so what matter really for most, I suspect little.
WE attach very strongly to food no doubt about it. It being something we do every day and always it is about the me.

Meat for offering...great purpose I'd guess as is suggested here....Me..... then I will remain lesser of lesser purpose. If greater purpose that be... be that for another not me.
A personal answer but it is mine.
I will have no part of it. Meat is harm to being in the west. Overt harm......... there exists other things to offer. As part then of spiritual offering....? Not mine, it will not be.
Others.....I could see others may need to do that...that is their business not mine. They are not me nor have they eaten the still dripping blood from sheeps neck as I have. So say I must do their thing or me, say they must do mine....no I will not do that.

Alcohole....it makes me sleepy...so that is it. I find no fault to alcohole as offering.
Alcohole is a joke. A made up demon, whose only influence is when you think it has influence. So that could I see have real applicable context.

Again this is all situational and specific to the one. Is it possible to find humanly killed or just died animals in the west..no very rarely.
Does the harm found by such killing overweigh the benefit found in the practice....no probably not.....for some people, perhaps the vast majority I don't know, (a teacher knows of the individual). The benefit being much greater for most I'd guess.
If it serves no individual purpose or only slight purpose then the benefit would be minimal and thusly the harm would outweigh the benefit.
So for some by my thinking it would be inappropriate. For other totally appropriate.

lIfe and death are of course demons as well, made up demons, but we are really causeing harm to another being with its untimely death in the production of the fear they feel(inthe west)....so it causes real, not made up harm in a conventional sense. So we must be certain what we offer does actually outweigh the harm..hence a teacher :smile:
Oh they may have a fortunate rebirth as result and all the rest(the meat provider).....well if I could read their story I could say that. NOt knowing that I won't. I could use that as all sorts of things....attempting to read rebirths and causing all sorts of harms.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Adamantine » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:43 am

wisdom wrote:So it seems like the point is to overcome limitations.


Actually there is more to it, there is a symbolism (which is not merely symbolic) of transmutation related both to the meat and alcohol.... In advanced Vajrayana rituals there is a profound purpose to everything that extends through many levels of meaning and experience, it is not incidental or casual, and not advisable to discard anything without understanding it thoroughly or without the direct instruction from one's own Vajra Master. Also, it would be equally inadvisable to practice any of this without initiation, transmission, and permission.... and speculating on it isn't really that useful either!
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Josef » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 am

There are commentaries on this subject that one can read. If you arent a Vajrayana practitioner it is none of your business anyways.
If you are, ask your teacher or read a relevant commentary.
This is not the place.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Adamantine » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:41 am

Nangwa wrote: If you arent a Vajrayana practitioner it is none of your business anyways.


Sadly this is true of a lot that's openly discussed in this forum... but these are degenerate times. . :crying:
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:56 am

Hello. I had to drop by and leave a comment. I know one way to find out if one is still attached to the habit of eating like Ron said, one can eat only one thing everyday for 10 days to see if the craving is still there for other food. Say eating brown rice everyday for example. If one is no longer attached to eating, then indeed the food is empty to him.

Personally, I am still attached to eating different varieties.
Last edited by LastLegend on Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wine and Meat Offerings?

Postby Josef » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:58 am

LastLegend wrote:Hello. I had to drop by and leave a comment. I know one way to find out if one is still attaching to the habit of eating like Ron said, one can eat only one thing everyday for 10 days to see if the craving is still there for other food. Say eating brown rice everyday for example.

Doesnt work.
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