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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:54 pm 
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Hi all,

I came across the out of print book "Great Compassion Dharma Transmission Verses of the 42 Hands and Eyes" by Tripitaka Master Hua. Does anyone know the history behind this practice? Which particular tantra is this traced backed to? Does this practice also require initiation?

I come from a Tibetan Buddhist background, but found this quite interesting as I didn't know such practices were still alive and well in Chinese Buddhism.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:57 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Hi all,

I came across the out of print book "Great Compassion Dharma Transmission Verses of the 42 Hands and Eyes" by Tripitaka Master Hua. Does anyone know the history behind this practice? Which particular tantra is this traced backed to? Does this practice also require initiation?

I come from a Tibetan Buddhist background, but found this quite interesting as I didn't know such practices were still alive and well in Chinese Buddhism.

:namaste:


Weirdly, Wiki ain't a bad source for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%ABlak ... 1ran%C4%AB

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:50 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Hi all,

I came across the out of print book "Great Compassion Dharma Transmission Verses of the 42 Hands and Eyes" by Tripitaka Master Hua. Does anyone know the history behind this practice? Which particular tantra is this traced backed to? Does this practice also require initiation?

I come from a Tibetan Buddhist background, but found this quite interesting as I didn't know such practices were still alive and well in Chinese Buddhism.

:namaste:


Boy would I like to have that book back again! Maybe it is my old copy :smile: Seriously, if you ever wish to part with it, PM me.

The source is this sutra, near the end you will see a list of mudras. The details of how to use them may come from an oral tradition or some lesser-known sadhana - I do not know.

http://www.fodian.net/world/dabei_sutra.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:27 pm 
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This page gives the pictures of the different mudras plus the relevant info:

http://www.vuonlam.us/01_NAM2009/03_Pha ... huNhan.htm

Ben,

There's a whole Esoteric Teachings Section (密教部) in the Taisho canon (volumes 18-21, texts 848-1420). Outside of the Japanese Shingon school there's no separate lineage for tantra but it's simply a part of general Buddhism. No initiations or anything like that.

Here's a list of Guanyin related mantras with some audio files: http://www.siddham.org/yuan1/main_guanyin.html

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:22 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
Weirdly, Wiki ain't a bad source for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%ABlak ... 1ran%C4%AB


Thanks Yeshe. Not bad for wiki.

Will wrote:
Boy would I like to have that book back again! Maybe it is my old copy :smile: Seriously, if you ever wish to part with it, PM me.

The source is this sutra, near the end you will see a list of mudras. The details of how to use them may come from an oral tradition or some lesser-known sadhana - I do not know.

http://www.fodian.net/world/dabei_sutra.htm


Thanks Will. Actually I don't have the book either...I came across the title online and it doesn't seem to be published unfortunately. Well, hopefully I'll come across it some day. :smile:

Astus wrote:
This page gives the pictures of the different mudras plus the relevant info:

http://www.vuonlam.us/01_NAM2009/03_Pha ... huNhan.htm

Ben,

There's a whole Esoteric Teachings Section (密教部) in the Taisho canon (volumes 18-21, texts 848-1420). Outside of the Japanese Shingon school there's no separate lineage for tantra but it's simply a part of general Buddhism. No initiations or anything like that.

Here's a list of Guanyin related mantras with some audio files: http://www.siddham.org/yuan1/main_guanyin.html


Ah, very nice Astus! Thanks! Would you happen to know off the top of your head which century the esoteric section has been dated back to?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Ben,

I'm no expert on this so don't expect much from me. Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra are the two famous masters who propagated mantrayana in China, both in the 8th century, and they've translated lot of works. One of the texts associated with the 42 hands and eyes practice (T1064) are by Amoghavarja for instance. The Wikipedia says, if that's reliable, that as early as the Southern and Northern Dynasties (420-589) there were translations of esoteric texts and later masters like Śubhakarasiṃha and Yixing were well known teachers (and performers) of it.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Ben,

I'm no expert on this so don't expect much from me. Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra are the two famous masters who propagated mantrayana in China, both in the 8th century, and they've translated lot of works. One of the texts associated with the 42 hands and eyes practice (T1064) are by Amoghavarja for instance. The Wikipedia says, if that's reliable, that as early as the Southern and Northern Dynasties (420-589) there were translations of esoteric texts and later masters like Śubhakarasiṃha and Yixing were well known teachers (and performers) of it.


Wonderful, thanks for taking the time Astus!

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:20 am 
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Will and others,

You are not supposed to have a copy of this text, I don't know how you go it, but it is a secret dharma that is only allowed through the permission of Dharma Masters Sure, and Abbot Lyu from the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas.
The Venerable Master was very strict towards the propagation of this dharma, and even till this day, one shouldn't casually look at the hands for it may cause one to lose the conditions to ever learn it in the future.

I got in a load of trouble at the City for taking a peak at the sutra while I was there, and the monks gave me quite a hard time, so I know that this is serious stuff. In the past that sutra was being casually circulated back in the day, but it is kept in secrecy now and not open to public, besides those who have the transmission of the hands and eyes. Mind you, this transmission is only done before the statue of Guan Yin Bodhisattva in the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, however, before when the Master was still around it was a different matter.

There's a certain event that happened when Master Hua was still alive. During his trip in Europe, he was going to propagate and transmit the hands and eyes, and in that crowd there were a few people who came to steal this dharma. Master Hua knew this prior to the transmission and yelled to the crowd that there are several people who came to steal the dharma and these people were then escorted outside of temple grounds. Please be advised that this dharma is only transmitted through the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, and if one wants to know more about it, one should get permission from the DRBA sangha.

I sincerely ask that you please respect the rules of transmission and propagation of this text, as you would the teachings of the Vajrayana school. If you do not have transmission, do not look or read this text without permission.

Mr. Gordo, as to your question, I was told that this dharma was lost during the Tang dynasty, and was recently recovered again through the Venerable Master Hua (the version you have has been revised by Master Hua and updated with the correct hand gestures). However, it's whereabouts in the Japanese tradition are unknown to me. Also, the dharma contained within the 42 hands & eyes is the same dharma Guan Yin Bodhisattva uses to ease the hearts of living beings. If you do have the book, and you wish to return it back to CTTB, please PM me, and I will discuss this further with you. I ask you kindly to respect the rules of CTTB, for the book you have was written and has commentaries from my teacher.


Last edited by remm on Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:34 am 
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Calm down remm and mind your own business.

Mr. Gordo wrote above "Actually I don't have the book either..."

In the earlier days this sutra was sold openly, with Master's comments.

Karma-vipaka is quite adequate in handling those who misuse the teachings.

If the DRBA gatekeepers are protective now, that is their choice. You are not a DRBA gatekeeper - are you?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:42 am 
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Sorry, I didn't mean to sound overly dramatic. I am calm and when someone addresses this issue in public, I think I have a right to post an opinion--is this not minding my own business?

I just know that DRBA is very strict against the propagation of this sutra and even myself, I have gotten in trouble because I casually looked at it. I am just trying to protect this sutra from being misused.

And no, Will, I am not a gatekeeper. But, I do volunteer at BTTS, and I know their rules and regulations pertaining to the use and propagation of this text.

Oh, and I apologize, I didn't see that Mr. Gordo stated that he didn't have the text. Nevermind then. :namaste:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:35 pm 
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How fascinating. I wonder on what basis does the CTTB claim this to be restricted to them. Or is it just the translation they worry about but not the Chinese and other translations?

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:18 am 
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Astus wrote:
How fascinating. I wonder on what basis does the CTTB claim this to be restricted to them. Or is it just the translation they worry about but not the Chinese and other translations?


CTTB is well aware of the other translations that are circulating around the web and in other monasteries, however, the version that was done by BTTS is strictly to be in the confines of CTTB, because it has updated hand gestures and the Ven. Master's own commentaries on the hands, also there were issues with the mantras in the past, so the Master was able to fix this, not only that, but the version that was done by CTTB has the full commentary to each verse and function in the lines of the Great Compassion mantra and the 42 hands and eyes, and how one can use its verses and what should be done prior to using the verses etc., but no, CTTB doesn't claim that this dharma is theirs, only that the version of their text should not be circulated openly, and as far as I know, CTTB is the only place that transmits the hands and eyes with the proper preliminary practices before the actual practice of the hands and eyes.

A friend of mine scanned a version of the Dharani Sutra that he had received in Malaysia, and sent it over to me. I compared the version that BTTS did with the one my friend showed me, and there were differences in the mantras and mudras, also the commentary by the Master was very clear and precise as to how to use the gestures, whereas the other one just had pictures and mantras and the praise that goes a long with each hand. There are also various 'platforms' one has to establish before engaging in the actual practice that the other sutra my friend sent me didn't talk about. So, yeah, you can see why DRBA is very strict against the propagation of this sutra. It is mainly because it has all the preliminary practices inside that guide the practitioner on how to truly make full use of the hands and eyes.

I apologize if I seemed too dramatic or if any of you felt I was 'trampling' in your business. I've had a lot of heat and scolding because I looked at this teaching which wasn't transmitted to me, and I know how important it is to CTTB so I try to inform others as best as I can so that one doesn't steal the dharma or do something that they're not supposed to do. I'd rather inform people first rather than have them misleaded and do something improper and have the seeds of that negative karma bear fruit, and result in negative conditions for them in the future. I hope you all understand.

Amituofo


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:34 am 
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Astus wrote:
Ben,

I'm no expert on this so don't expect much from me. Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra are the two famous masters who propagated mantrayana in China, both in the 8th century, and they've translated lot of works. One of the texts associated with the 42 hands and eyes practice (T1064) are by Amoghavarja for instance. The Wikipedia says, if that's reliable, that as early as the Southern and Northern Dynasties (420-589) there were translations of esoteric texts and later masters like Śubhakarasiṃha and Yixing were well known teachers (and performers) of it.


I think that it is really at the late end of the 420-589 period, but much more common in the Sui and Tang dynasties which followed.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:26 am 
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interesting...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Remm,

I see. So Ven. Xuanhua created an extended version of it. Still, I don't understand why it's kept hidden when many other teachings are available for everyone.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:54 pm 
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I have the original Dharani sutra: The sutra of the vast, great, perfect, full, unimpeded great compassion heart dharani of the thousand-handed, thousand-eyed Bodhisattva who regards the world's sound, by Master Hsuan Hua ISBN # 0917512138, when I requested it from the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas they would not give it to me, but I found it in an antique book shop and I can now recite the Dharani Sutra from memory. Why wouldn't they give me the book? Is this a Secret Dharma too ? I have been offered $10,000 for this book but I will not give it up. why is this book so important ? this book printed in 1976 is almost 40 years old. Why do so many people want it ? Has this sutra been blessed by master Hsuan Hua ? I don't get it, but I do feel a special connection to the Sutra as it was very difficult for me to learn the mantra until I got the sutra in my hand. this Dharani Sutra also has pictures , true words , mantras and commentary on each of the 42 hands and eyes. I feel something special when I pick it up and recite from it, but I don't know what it is.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:58 am 
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guoli wrote:
I have the original Dharani sutra: The sutra of the vast, great, perfect, full, unimpeded great compassion heart dharani of the thousand-handed, thousand-eyed Bodhisattva who regards the world's sound, by Master Hsuan Hua ISBN # 0917512138, when I requested it from the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas they would not give it to me, but I found it in an antique book shop and I can now recite the Dharani Sutra from memory. Why wouldn't they give me the book? Is this a Secret Dharma too ? I have been offered $10,000 for this book but I will not give it up. why is this book so important ? this book printed in 1976 is almost 40 years old. Why do so many people want it ? Has this sutra been blessed by master Hsuan Hua ? I don't get it, but I do feel a special connection to the Sutra as it was very difficult for me to learn the mantra until I got the sutra in my hand. this Dharani Sutra also has pictures , true words , mantras and commentary on each of the 42 hands and eyes. I feel something special when I pick it up and recite from it, but I don't know what it is.


You have a good karmic connection to find this old gem guoli! Hsuan Hua is a bodhisattva, so any teaching of his is a blessing.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:59 am 
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Thanks Will, its been an amazing experience, good things happening that I could not accomplish before and I wonder is it just in my mind.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:15 am 
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guoli wrote:
Thanks Will, its been an amazing experience, good things happening that I could not accomplish before and I wonder is it just in my mind.


Well, it is in your mind - but what is not?

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