Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

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Malcolm
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:57 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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conebeckham
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:28 pm

I'll ask the "leading question" then...if objects can be perceived only in two ways, correctly and incorrectly, and incorrect perception is relative truth, then what is correct perception?

Or, in other words, is "perception" always incorrect?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Mariusz
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Mariusz » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:58 pm


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:04 pm

look there's this whole debate that has been going on forever about whether Buddhas perceive the relative or only the ultimate. Since there is no consensus, I guess we'll just have to wait until we're Buddhas to find out. The Buddha, as he is portrayed in most of the extant texts, would undoubtably consider such speculation completely pointless anyway. What is important is how we perceive what, and why.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Mariusz
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Mariusz » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:19 pm


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gad rgyangs
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:32 pm

Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

Mariusz
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Mariusz » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:05 pm


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conebeckham
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:54 am



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:33 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Mariusz » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:35 am


Mariusz
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Mariusz » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:57 am


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Malcolm
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:56 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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conebeckham
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Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:15 pm

Namdrol-
Thanks. Would it be fair, then, to say that a correct perception does not see "objects," or phenomena, per se?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Malcolm
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:23 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:31 am

Wouldn't that mean then that Buddha would bump every object along his way?
Might there be the case that, at least from a Dzogchen perspective, all phenomena are recognized as ornaments, manifestation of the energy aspect and not taken as something existent? I'm just asking to see if I can make some sense out of this.

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Malcolm
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:36 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:46 am

And wouldn't perceiving wisdom mean recognizing all phenomena as the energy aspect instead of not perceiving phenomena at all? Perceiving manifestation "as it is" instead of not perceiving manifestation? Again, just asking to see if this makes sense.

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Malcolm
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:53 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Dechen Norbu
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Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:02 am

You're right. I forgot the topic we're in. Thank you for your answers! Sorry for derailing this thread a little, fellows.

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Tom
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Tom » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:12 am

Namdrol,

Do you mind elaborating on the apparent contradiction…

"A correct perception takes ultimate truth as its object" and "most Madhyamakas would say that objects are not perceived at all"

Or put another way how do you equate for Candra referring to ultimate truth as an object with Santideva's emphasis that it is not an object (9:2)

I understand that Gelugpa's in post meditation identify emptiness as an object and as such need to tweak Santideva's position but what about most Madhyamikas where ultimate truth is beyond any categorizations don't they need to tweak Candra's assertion which refers to ultimate truth as an object?


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