Ojas (general discussion)

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Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:37 pm

PLEASE NOTE

This topic has been split from here.


In my experience, sex only disturbs the body and depletes Ojas when we reach orgasm. This being said, one can and even should actually have sex almost every day of the year, because if we withdraw from intercourse before reaching orgasm, we actually build a lot of Ojas regardless of the season (although perhaps we build more Ojas in Autumn and Winter; as the Gnostics say, IAO enters more into activity in Autumn).

According to Swami Sivananda, the orgasm anytime at all really jars the nerves, and in my own experience this true. It may seem like the orgasm releases tension (and according to Buddhism we do experience the Clear Light for a few brief seconds at the moment of orgasm) and it does, temporarily; however when the pendulum swings the other way, tension comes back with even more force leaving us with the choice of either continuing with orgasm in order to alleviate the tension that will keep coming back; or we can start to transmute our sexual energy without ever reaching orgasm, and in this way we can begin to alleviate sexual and physical tension for good through the Middle Way of sexuality, as opposed to the two extremes of fornication (orgasm) and repression (holding the sexual energy in but without transmuting it). By retaining Ojas via the Middle Way of sexuality, is is taught that we can experience the Clear Light permanently rather than for a few brief fleeting seconds during the orgasm.

Here are some views on Ojas from a Vedanta and Gnostic perspective:

http://sacred-sex.org/search.html?q=Ojas

When Tibetan medical treatises say that it's okay to have orgasms, they're obviously addressing lay-people and not Initiates; because in the Higher Tantras and such it written that we should never let out the sexual energy:

The Dalai Lama on Sexuality in the context of Tantra

And:

Sky Dancer by Keith Dowman wrote:"Joy is created by the ascent of the blended red and white bodhicittas up the medial nerve from the sexual centre through the gut, heart, throat and head centres in turn (although the most intense feeling of joy is in the gut and the least intense in the head). The rising bodhicitta is kundalini....

"Refined semen is stored in the heart centre as "radiance," which produces long-life and gives a shine to the complexion. Unrefined semen is excreted during sexual intercourse and is, of course, procreative seed. The refined semen in the heart centre permeates the body as Awareness; "heart centre" is here a metaphor for the all-pervasive sphere of essential being (dharmakaya). Loss of semen, by any means, causes the life-span to be shortened and causes a pallid complexion....Loss of semen is equated with killing a Buddha. Semen, seed-essence and bodhicitta are synonymous. After initiation, intensity of desire is essential to force the bodhicitta up the medial nerve; not only is desire vitiated by orgasm, but the will to enlightenment itself is temporarily lost...."


Although of course transmutation is not merely sex without orgasm. Our ability to effectively transmute the sexual energy and build Ojas is also very dependent on our Meditative abilities, related to Shamatha, Vipassana, Dhyana, Samadhi, etc.; and would also be enhanced by Yantra Yoga, Pranayama, Vase Breathing, Tsa-Lung, etc.


Namdrol wrote: The whole point of Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine is to refine and purify ojas in the body for longevity etc. In Tibetan the term ojas is translated as "mdangs".


Interesting. Are mdangs and gdangs different?

And how are they related to Thugs-rJe, gDangs, rGyan, Rolpa, and rTsal (Tsel or Tsal) in the context of Dzogchen? With Ngo-bo (Ngowo) and Rang-bZhin (Rangzhin) already in mind of course.


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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:19 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Namdrol wrote: The whole point of Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine is to refine and purify ojas in the body for longevity etc. In Tibetan the term ojas is translated as "mdangs".


Interesting. Are mdangs and gdangs different?

And how are they related to Thugs-rJe, gDangs, Rolpa, and rTsal in the context of Dzogchen? With Ngo-bo (Ngowo) and Rang-bZhin (Rangzhin) already in mind of course.



The Dzogchen term, "mdangs", i.e., radiance, has nothing to do with ojas, and nor does, gdangs, i.e., luminesence.

Conserving semen is a non-issue in Dzogchen. This is clearly explained in the Khandro Nyinthig.

In terms of highest yoga tantra, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen and Sapan clearly explain there is no fault in ejaculating if one is not practicing the completion stage practices such as tummo and union yoga.

N
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Re: Ojas

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:The Dzogchen term, "mdangs", i.e., radiance, has nothing to do with ojas, and nor does, gdangs, i.e., luminesence.


I'm sure that in Dzogchen these terms have a much deeper context and meaning than they do in Tantra; however I doubt that the said deeper Dzogchen context and meaning completely excludes the Tantric context related to Ojas.

(Note: I'm aware that even though Dzogchen is beyond Tantra, that Dzogchen scriptures are still referred to as Tantras)


Namdrol wrote:Conserving semen is a non-issue in Dzogchen. This is clearly explained in the Khandro Nyinthig.


Are these the very words of Padmasambhava or Longchenpa? Or are they the words of another commentator?


Namdrol wrote:In terms of highest yoga tantra, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen and Sapan clearly explain there is no fault in ejaculating if one is not practicing the completion stage practices such as tummo and union yoga.


That may be, but I don't see any benefit in expelling the physical aspect of Thigle/Bodhicitta (semen) from one's body at all, whether in the context of Tantra or Dzogchen.

The only "benefit" orgasm might have for anyone, is for profane people who are pent up because they do not know how to transmute and meditate properly. Or orgasm might "benefit" those who are engaging in sexual activity not in order to transmute attachment (Samsara) into Nirvana, but who are consciously engaging in sexual activity as to wallow in attachment (Samsara).

Abiding in the Natural State of Dzogchen would I'm sure be a whole other dimension compared to the limited state of awareness of sentient beings, and even of Pratyeka Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on the lower Bhumis. But still, what could possibly be the benefit of expelling Thigle/Bodhicitta, even while in the Natural State?

Now there are sometimes contradictions and disagreements between some of the various Tantras (whether Dzogchen Tantras or otherwise), and also in their different commentaries given by various schools. Also, scriptures of any tradition often become adulterated over time as they pass through various hands, etc. Nevertheless, the world's spiritual traditions are unanimous regarding the benefits of the absolute conservation of semen or complete chastity (and by chastity I don't mean exoterically as in repression. I mean chastity from the esoteric viewpoint of sublimation and transmutation).

By the way, it was mentioned elsewhere on these forums that in the Lama Yangtig, Longchen Rabjam gives Karmamudra instructions.

Edit: It was actually you who mentioned it:



Is this available in English?


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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:18 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:[

Namdrol wrote:Conserving semen is a non-issue in Dzogchen. This is clearly explained in the Khandro Nyinthig.


Are these the very words of Padmasambhava or Longchenpa? Or are they the words of another commentator?



Padmasambhava.

Namdrol wrote:In terms of highest yoga tantra, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen and Sapan clearly explain there is no fault in ejaculating if one is not practicing the completion stage practices such as tummo and union yoga.


That may be, but I don't see any benefit in expelling the physical aspect of Thigle/Bodhicitta (semen) from one's body at all, whether in the context of Tantra or Dzogchen.


There is a very good reason: if you block or forcefuly prevent ejaculation, it will result in semen stones and impotence long term. It is bad for the health of your body. If the semen moves, you should just let it go. Sukra is a kitta (snyigs ma, waste product), it is an impurity to be expelled from the body, like it's female counterpart, menstrual tissue and the oocyte, like all the kittas in the process of digestion, for example, sweat, hair, nails, rectal grease, and so on.

What is important to conserve is ojas, this is the real thigle or bindu we should care about. Ojas is most likely to be lost with semen in hot seasons like the summer (from the first day of the fourth month of the lunar calendar to the first day of the seventh month) when people are eating food with little rasa or bcud -- therefore one should only ejaculate bi-weekly during this season. In the winter one can ejaculate as much as one likes (up to five times a day) because people generally eat food that is very oily, (snum, snigdah̨) and nutritious (rasa, bcud) during this season. Every other day is the proper ratio during early spring and the fall.

Nevertheless, the world's spiritual traditions are unanimous regarding the benefits of the absolute conservation of semen or complete chastity (and by chastity I don't mean exoterically as in repression. I mean chastity from the esoteric viewpoint of sublimation and transmutation).


No, they are not. And definitely not in Anuttarayoga tantra. Peope who think there is something to sublimate or transform do not understand the principles of physiology that informs the tantras (and this is shockingly in common in Lamas who lack medical educations). There is something refined to retain, and something that is a residue or a waste product (of the process of refinement) to eliminate. Ojas is the former, and sukra is the latter. Really.

Is this available in English?


No, I am afraid it is not.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:20 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The Dzogchen term, "mdangs", i.e., radiance, has nothing to do with ojas, and nor does, gdangs, i.e., luminesence.


I'm sure that in Dzogchen these terms have a much deeper context and meaning than they do in Tantra; however I doubt that the said deeper Dzogchen context and meaning completely excludes the Tantric context related to Ojas.


The Dzogchen context completely excludes the Tantric context related to Ojas. The word mdang does not only tanslate ojas. It is also translates chavi i.e. chavi f. skin , cuticle , Pa1rGr , iii , 12 Hariv. 15709 Sus3r. VarBr2S. lxix , 28 ff. ; colour of the skin , colour MBh. iii , 12387 Mr2icch. Megh. &c. ; beauty , splendour Ragh. ix , 34 S3is3. ix , 3 Naish. xxii , 55 ; a ray of light L. ; cf. %{kRSNa-cch-}.

When you do not know Tibetan well, or lack a grasp of how Tibetans translate various diffent Sansksrit terms using the same word into Tibetan, you can mislead yourself into making unwarranted conclusions.

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Re: Ojas

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:16 am

Well perhaps some of those Lamas such as the ones you referred to as not being educated in medical knowledge, agree with teachers such as Swami Sivananda and Samael Aun Weor, in that all of the physical semen can literally be transmuted into non-physical Ojas.

The Dalai Lama himself never mentions that it's okay for any Initiate to spill the semen. In fact, in every instance regarding this topic, he only talks about the necessity of preserving the semen. At least as far as I'm aware.

Swami Sivananda has also referred to Yogis who's sexual energy has become so centripetal (i.e. inward and upward, as opposed to the centrifugal downwards and outwards flow of ordinary people), that their body does not even produce physical semen anymore.

In female menstruation, normally only one egg is released. This is akin to a male releasing only one sperm. The latter is how some Yogis are said to have children without reaching orgasm. They have the Siddha or Occult Power of being able to intentionally release only one sperm.

And yes, ejaculation should not be forcefully blocked. That's why I said that Karmamudra is not merely sex without orgasm. In other words, the sexual act in the case of Karmamudra is not animalistic like the way that ordinary people perform it.

The Tantric Karmamudra is as the Hermetic axiom says, with "a gentle heat, with much attention".

In other words, it's not a race to get off, but more like an art form. In this correct way of Karmamudra practice, there is no forceful blocking of ejaculation and therefore no worry of kidney stones or a swollen prostate, because the semen is subtly transformed into Ojas through the (non-forceful) restraining of the orgasm and the meditative capability of the practitioner. Although it is said that more advanced practitioners can allow themselves to get closer to the orgasm and then skillfully restrain themselves when it is approaching, without actually reaching orgasm and without any harmful forceful blockage of ejaculation. Some Tibetan treatises even talk about letting the semen get close to the end of the Vajra Tip and then withdrawing the semen back inside, instead of letting it come out (i.e. getting to close to orgasm, but not actually reaching it; yet in a very skillful way).

And from what I understand, its not even the loss of physical semen that's necessarily the most damaging to ones storing of Ojas. It's the spastic movements of the orgasm that extinguishes tremendous amounts of Ojas; Ojas that ought to be saved (in the heart centre as radiance, as Keith Dowman says in Sky Dancer).

Here is a link for those interested, about the various subtle types of sexual energy to be sublimated to, and saved in, the heart center:

About "Retaining the Seed," Tantrism

What it boils down to though is direct experience via study and experimentation & the application of the Scientific Method.

Anyway, even though we may not see eye-to-eye on this particular topic, Namdrol; I appreciate many of your posts on both Medicine and Dzogchen.

Hopefully excellent English translations of the Lama Yang-tig, the Khandro Nying-thig, and the Vima Yang-tig will soon be available.


Sarva Mangalam
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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:20 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Well perhaps some of those Lamas such as the ones you referred to as not being educated in medical knowledge, agree with teachers such as Swami Sivananda and Samael Aun Weor, in that all of the physical semen can literally be transmuted into non-physical Ojas.


Ojas is a physical fluid. It is stated so quite clearly by Caraka, Sushruta, and Vagbhata. However, many people do not understand these texts because they do not understand the underlying anatomy of the body in Indian culture. I however am a fully trained Tibetan doctor, someone who has done three year retreat, have read literally thousands and thousands of pages of these texts in Tibetan.

Ojas is a physical fluid. People who think otherwise are simply mistaken.
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Re: Ojas

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:34 am

Fair enough, if we can at least explore the possibility of Ojas being both physical and non-physical.

Given the above citations, among others, it is well known in Indian Yoga and Tantra that the physical Bindu and/or Ojas can be transmuted into non-physical Ojas and stored in the Brain and Heart Center (again, please see the above quotes and links in my previous posts in this thread).
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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:49 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:
And from what I understand, its not even the loss of physical semen that's necessarily the most damaging to ones storing of Ojas. It's the spastic movements of the orgasm that releases tremendous amounts of Ojas; Ojas that ought to be saved (in the heart centre as radiance, as Keith Dowman says in Sky Dancer).


No, the most damaging thing to Ojas is anxiety and worry. The next most damaging thing to ojas poor food. The next most damaging thing to Ojas is releasing it along with semen during the summer when Ojas is not produced abundently since one's food is too "pale" i.e. lacking substantial nutrition. During this season it is more difficult to separate.

Basically, Lhugpa-- I could care less what Sivananda and Auer say. I care what Medicine Buddha says, Padmasambhava,Caraka, Sushruta, Vagbhata, etc. People are very confused about this issue because the tantras discuss these issues in an indirect and obscure way and people ignorant of their true meaning interpret them in many incorrect ways. On the other hand the Ayurvedic traditon and Tibetan Medical tradition discuss these things clearly and openly.

For example, Padmasambhava, since he knows medicine quite well, in the text I mentioned in the KN, discusses how to divided the rasa and kitta of the bindu. Why? Because ojas is the final physical product of the digestion of food, the final rasa.

For example, the explanatory tantra states:

"The final state of the semen (sukra) of the physical constituents (saptadhātu) is the supreme one called "ojas"; located in the heart, pervading the entire body, and causing longevity, and causing a radiant complexion and a brightness."

As I said, Caraka, etc. identify this as a clear fluid in the body, surrounding the heart etc. It is physical, not non-physical.

You do not seem to understand that in the Tibetan translation of the Aṣtangahridayasamhita, ojas is translated as mdang when it refers to ojas, and gzi mdangs when referring to a radiant complexion, and mdangs 'gyur when referring to pitta that exists in the skin, i.e. bhrajaka pitta.


N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:50 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Fair enough, if we can at least explore the possibility of Ojas being both physical and non-physical.



Sorry, this is just bullshit. To be frank. It is based on a misunderstanding, someone's mystical fantasies.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Ojas

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:10 am

Namdrol wrote:No, the most damaging thing to Ojas is anxiety and worry. The next most damaging thing to ojas poor food. The next most damaging thing to Ojas is releasing it along with semen during the summer when Ojas is not produced abundently since one's food is too "pale" i.e. lacking substantial nutrition. During this season it is more difficult to separate.


Agreed, about the anxiety and poor food part; but still, according to my understanding, Ojas should not be released with the semen at all, regardless of the season. Perhaps lay people were advised to, but Initiates (whether Buddhist or not) should transmute it to the Heart Center instead of expelling it.

As for the context of all of this in the Buddhist Tantras, I would have to study them more in order to understand the proper context, that is instead of simply taking your word for it based on your interpretations.

So I'll reference what you've said here, and see what I come up with in comparing it to other Buddhist teachings whether Sutra or Tantra (and also what is within the Sacred-Sex link in my signature).

I do respect your training and background in Tantric physiology; yet I also respect the already mentioned teachers of other traditions (Hindu, Gnostic, etc.), and want to take some time to learn more as well, before saying too much more on the topic.


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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:15 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Given the above citations, among others, it is well known in Indian Yoga and Tantra that the physical Bindu and/or Ojas can be transmuted into non-physical Ojas and stored in the Brain and Heart Center (again, please see the above quotes and links in my previous posts in this thread).


Really, prove it. Give me a source text, a direct quotation. With Sanskrit.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: Ojas

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:28 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, the most damaging thing to Ojas is anxiety and worry. The next most damaging thing to ojas poor food. The next most damaging thing to Ojas is releasing it along with semen during the summer when Ojas is not produced abundently since one's food is too "pale" i.e. lacking substantial nutrition. During this season it is more difficult to separate.


Agreed, about the anxiety and poor food part; but still, according to my understanding, Ojas should not be released with the semen at all, regardless of the season. Perhaps lay people were advised to, but Initiates (whether Buddhist or not) should transmute it to the Heart Center instead of expelling it.


But indeed it is, if imperfectly separated from sukra.



As for the context of all of this in the Buddhist Tantras, I would have to study them more in order to understand the proper context, that is instead of simply taking your word for it based on your interpretations.


this is not my interpretation. This is what the texts actually say.


So I'll reference what you've said here, and see what I come up with in comparing it to other Buddhist teachings whether Sutra or Tantra (and also what is within the Sacred-Sex link in my signature).

yet I also respect the already mentioned teachers of other traditions (Hindu, Gnostic, etc.), and want to take some time to learn more as well, before saying too much more on the topic.


I have no problem with Hindus. Caraka was a rishi. His authority in the matter is undisputed.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:29 pm

My main focus is Dzogchen, yet I'm not considering to abandon Gnosis either; however I'll refrain from saying much more about this for right now, as I do not want to become somehow responsible for causing any sort of split in the Sangha (there are many other disciples of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche who post here).

If in Meditating upon it I conclude that something more should be said, then perhaps I will.


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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:32 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:My main focus is Dzogchen, yet I'm not considering to abandon Gnosis either; however I'll refrain from saying much more about this for right now, as I do not want to become somehow responsible for causing any sort of split in the Sangha (there are many other disciples of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche who post here).

If in Meditating upon it I conclude that something more should be said, then perhaps I will.


Best Regards



It's not about meditation or gnosis, its about physiology.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Virgo » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:02 pm

Loppon,

What about Vajroli?

Thanks,

Kevin
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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Thug4lyfe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:51 am

I don't plan to do any "sex practices" in the future. But just wondering if it's just normal sex with the missus, is it good for the woman to climax a few times? Is it harmful for their Karma?

Sounds like building stamina and holding off is a good health practice anyway huh? I heard those Tao homeboys in ancient China is practicing holding off as well.
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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:33 am

Hi Food Eatah

I don't want to say too much in answering your questions, in case I don't give good advice regarding you and your missus' particular situation.

Some excellent resources though:

http://sacred-sex.org/scriptures/taoism.html

http://sacred-sex.org/methodology.html

http://sacred-sex.org/search.html?q=Vajroli

http://sacred-sex.org/scriptures/buddhism.html


Best Regards
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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby wisdom » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:39 am

Food_Eatah wrote:I don't plan to do any "sex practices" in the future. But just wondering if it's just normal sex with the missus, is it good for the woman to climax a few times? Is it harmful for their Karma?

Sounds like building stamina and holding off is a good health practice anyway huh? I heard those Tao homeboys in ancient China is practicing holding off as well.


In my opinion its not inherently bad for someones karma to orgasm. The best kind of sex for a lay person to engage in is the kind that is unselfish. Where one is thinking of and wanting to please ones partner rather than only ones self. Bad karma is generated when all of your sexual experiences are fueled by lust. There should be the desire for the other person, true, but it should be the desire to be united with them, it should be selfless, and the aim should be that both parties are mutually satisfied. This is as true of a one night stand as it is for a long term relationship.
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Re: Ojas (general discussion)

Postby Thug4lyfe » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:46 am

wisdom wrote:This is as true of a one night stand as it is for a long term relationship.

On shaky ground here. Is Dharma Ending Age really the sort of time to give more consent for 5 preceptees to excuse to break them?

Some of those pick up artist and open marriage proposers are already using similar arguments.
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