Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

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Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Sergei » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:05 pm

Can anyone explain this deity to me? (I post the question here, because I understand that he is primarily a Kagyu deity, but I may well be mistaken in this.) For example, there seem to be two tantric versions of Chenrezig--him and Hayagriva. Do they have different meanings? Why does Kagyu (or perhaps just Karma Kagyu) emphasize this deity? What about him makes him higher than white Chenrezig? (Surely more than just color.)

Also, I have seen very different-looking pictures of Red Avalokiteshvara. In one, he looks just like four-armed Chenrezig, except colored red. In another he has only two arms, and is in union with a consort who may or may not be Vajrayogini. I think there are others as well. How did this iconography develop, historically?

Thank you!
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Silent Bob » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:59 pm

Sergei wrote:Can anyone explain this deity to me? (I post the question here, because I understand that he is primarily a Kagyu deity, but I may well be mistaken in this.) For example, there seem to be two tantric versions of Chenrezig--him and Hayagriva. Do they have different meanings? Why does Kagyu (or perhaps just Karma Kagyu) emphasize this deity? What about him makes him higher than white Chenrezig? (Surely more than just color.)

Also, I have seen very different-looking pictures of Red Avalokiteshvara. In one, he looks just like four-armed Chenrezig, except colored red. In another he has only two arms, and is in union with a consort who may or may not be Vajrayogini. I think there are others as well. How did this iconography develop, historically?

Thank you!


Red Chenrezig (Gyalwa Gyamtso, Jinasagara) is a peaceful annuttara yidam, generally depicted with consort and in either five-deity or nine-deity forms. The practice involves an elaborate body mandala and completion stage and is ordinarily not done outside of three-year or other extended retreat.
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/696.html
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/790.html

Here is a brief description from Gampo Abbey's three-year retreat prospectus:
"6. Jinasagara retreat: Jinasagara (Tib: Gyalwa Gyatso), red Avaloketishvara with consort, is a very important yidam practice in the Kagyu lineage, and like Guyasamaja, it is of the father lineage—an emphasis on the upaya of compassion, completely transforming aggression. The lineage comes from Rechungpa who received it from two sources. First he was asked by Marpa to go to India and receive these teachings on the nine dharmas of the formless dakinis from Tiphupa. Padmasambhava also gave instructions on Jinasagara to King Trisong Detsen and Yeshe Tsopgyal. They were concealed as a terma that was later transmitted to Rechungpa by the terton Nyan Rolpa. Rechungpa’s lineage was transmitted to the second Karmapa, Karma Pakshi and the practice of Jinasagara remains a heart practice of the Karmapas. The practice in retreat is similar to Chakrasamvara in that it has outer, inner, secret, very secret aspects and a drupchen and fire puja are included."

I hope that I've been able to answer your questions.

Chris
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Malcolm » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:13 pm

Silent Bob wrote:First he was asked by Marpa to go to India and receive these teachings on the nine dharmas of the formless dakinis from Tiphupa.



This part of Gampo abbey's thing is wrong. Mila asked Rechungpa to go, not marpa. Rechungpa never met Marpa.
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Silent Bob » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:33 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:First he was asked by Marpa to go to India and receive these teachings on the nine dharmas of the formless dakinis from Tiphupa.



This part of Gampo abbey's thing is wrong. Mila asked Rechungpa to go, not marpa. Rechungpa never met Marpa.


You're right--that part doesn't make sense. Please try to forgive me.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Malcolm » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:44 pm

Silent Bob wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:First he was asked by Marpa to go to India and receive these teachings on the nine dharmas of the formless dakinis from Tiphupa.



This part of Gampo abbey's thing is wrong. Mila asked Rechungpa to go, not marpa. Rechungpa never met Marpa.


You're right--that part doesn't make sense. Please try to forgive me.


You are not at fault, so nothing to forgive.
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby conebeckham » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:15 pm

There are a variety of "Red Chenrezig" practices, including the 9 and 5 deity practices of the Kamtsang. There are a bunch of distinct Terma lineages, as well. In the Kamtsang, the two armed form is "Sahaja Jinasagara." Sadhanas often include both the two and four armed forms. The full sadhanas also include Hayagriva, as the extremely wrathful form. Gyalwa Gyamtso, Jinasagara, is usually called "semi-wrathful" in the same way Chakrasamvara or Guhyasamaja would be.....in actuality, these yidams reflect all of the emotional states at once, but unbearable passionate desire figures largely, as well. They are complex and multivalent, in some sense.

Father Tantra is concerned with Skillful means, as well as with the aggressive emotions as noted. Vajrayogini as "yum" represents the Wisdom aspect.

Jinasagara is a Highest Yoga Tantra practice--so you could say it's "Higher" than other Chenrezig practices because the view of Highest Yoga Tantra is contained and conveyed in the practice--when one enters into relationship with the sadhana, this becomes clear.

For the Kamtsang practice, Rechungpa was indeed the main source. He received multiple transmissions, both oral transmissions from Sumatikirti (and back to Mahapala) and from Tipupa (and back to Druppai Gyalmo), and Terma transmission from Mikyo Dorje (not the 8th Karmapa, but a student of Nyang). Rechungpa condensed these transmissions, and they came down to the Kamtsang via the first Situpa. This was passed down the lineage, and Karma Pakshi later also received transmission of certain elements directly from Amitabha and the Dakinis, according to the traditional accounts.
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Silent Bob » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:28 pm

Not to be outdone by my friend Cone, I offer this quote from "The Autobiography of Jamgon Kongtrul": "This practice of Jinasagara, being the quintessential life force of the dakinis, is traditionally said to be very hazardous, and so there are many stories of others, too, who have encountered dangers with this practice. For me, though, I just have never experienced a personal retreat more upsetting than this one." (p.67)

Chris
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--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby conebeckham » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Yay Chris! :smile:

Love that quote--from one of my favorite books.

Gyalwa Gyamtso was Kongtrul's main practice, by his own account.
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:40 pm

Silent Bob wrote:Not to be outdone by my friend Cone, I offer this quote from "The Autobiography of Jamgon Kongtrul": "This practice of Jinasagara, being the quintessential life force of the dakinis, is traditionally said to be very hazardous, and so there are many stories of others, too, who have encountered dangers with this practice. For me, though, I just have never experienced a personal retreat more upsetting than this one." (p.67)


That's an interesting quote that I don't remember from "Gem of Many Colors" - but the practice was Jamgon Kongtrul's personal year end retreat practice (he mentions it at the end of nearly every year).

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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby conebeckham » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:58 pm

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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Sergei » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:59 am

Thank you all! (But don't stop--this is fascinating.)
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Karma Sherab » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:53 pm

Here is a point to "bake one's noodle" (excuse the plagiarized quote please).

The Gampo Abbey account says that "Lokeshvara Mahakarunikaya Jinasagara Avalokitesvara" ( Tib: Jigtenwangchuk Tug je chenpo Gyalwa Gyatso Chenrezi) - to refer to Him with the full name used in the Mandala Ritual Sadhana and the Great Commentary by the first Karma Chagme; is said to be father Tantra.

Thrangu Rinpoche is adamant on this on the basis that the "tradition" is father Tantra.

What is strange and noodle baking though is that in the commentary, the practices are referred to as the "essence of mother tantra" by Karma Chagme who wrote the main commentary used to this day.
Jamgon Kongtrul also lists the Tantra as mother Tantra (please see the back matter in “the Gem of many colours”). The Drubthab kundu lists it among mother Tantras.

I have discussed this in depth with the late Bokar Rinpoche who looked it up in his personal note books and also verified that when he received the lineage, it was stated to be mother tantra.

Now to add further fuel to this pointless fire, Beru Khyentse Rinpoche and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche have said that Jinasagara is non-dual tantra like Kalachakra.
Bokar Rinpoche did say that over time as various oral instructions evolved the practice could have become defacto non-dual tantra. Thrangu Rinpoche did not want to refute this view and agreed in theory but otherwise, as is evident in the Gampo abbey site, sticks to his view that Jinasagara is a father Tantra.

Personally I have wondered about this for years and i would be appreciative of any ideas expressed by my learned Vajra sisters and brothers on Dharma Wheel.

However, for myself, it doesn't affect the practice itself and I am starting to see Je Tsong Khapa’s view that father mother tantras is an artificial demarcation that is essentially superfluous and that all Tantras are essentially "non dual" and can be practiced with one or another emphasis.

BTW someone mentioned a standing yab-yum Jinasagara - if one looks at those pictures carefully, you will find they are entitled "Guhyasadhana Jinasagara".

All the best to everyone and may we all be enveloped by the four limitless meditations.

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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby kirtu » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:34 pm

Karma Sherab wrote:Here is a point to "bake one's noodle" (excuse the plagiarized quote please).

...the first Karma Chagme; is said to be father Tantra.

Thrangu Rinpoche is adamant on this on the basis that the "tradition" is father Tantra.

...
Jamgon Kongtrul also lists the Tantra as mother Tantra (please see the back matter in “the Gem of many colours”). The Drubthab kundu lists it among mother Tantras.

I have discussed this in depth with the late Bokar Rinpoche who looked it up in his personal note books and also verified that when he received the lineage, it was stated to be mother tantra.

Now to add further fuel to this pointless fire, Beru Khyentse Rinpoche and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche have said that Jinasagara is non-dual tantra like Kalachakra.
Bokar Rinpoche did say that over time as various oral instructions evolved the practice could have become defacto non-dual tantra. Thrangu Rinpoche did not want to refute this view and agreed in theory but otherwise, as is evident in the Gampo abbey site, sticks to his view that Jinasagara is a father Tantra.


It's an interesting thing to research. I have heard lineage holders (not Karma Kagyu holders though) gloss this by saying different lineages hold different views on Father, Mother and Non-Dual tantra with Kalachakra and Hevajra being the prime examples of contention (esp. Hevajra). And it basically breaks down to whether the practice is more on the method side or the wisdom side.

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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Karma Sherab » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:52 am

Hi Kirt,

I fully subscribe to the view you have suggested - which I guess is what Je Tsong Khappa was getting at.

It seems from a practitioners point of view, it is really an academic issue for scholars. :smile:

PS I have discussed this with many Lamas other than mentioned (for eg Tenga Rinpoche, Traleg Rinpoche etc) and the general concensus is mother tantra.

A rather authoritative view would be 5hat of the current Karma Chagme Rinpoche.

He simply answered cryptically - "Gyalwa Gyatso - if practiced properly embraces all the nine yanas without exception" :bow:
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby sherabpa » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:08 pm

conebeckham wrote: they came down to the Kamtsang via the first Situpa. This was passed down the lineage, and Karma Pakshi later also received transmission of certain elements


Karma Pakshi [1203–1283] surely pre-dates the first Situ [1377-1448]?
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Dhondrub » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:32 pm

sherabpa wrote:
conebeckham wrote: they came down to the Kamtsang via the first Situpa. This was passed down the lineage, and Karma Pakshi later also received transmission of certain elements


Karma Pakshi [1203–1283] surely pre-dates the first Situ [1377-1448]?


Drogon Rechen(1148-1218) usually is referred to as one of Situ Rinpoche former Reincarnations preceding the first Situ Tulku Chokyi Gyaltsen (1377-1448).
I think that is what Cone is referring to. I also heard some Lamas speaking of Drogon Rechen as the first Situpa before.

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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Karma Sherab » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:08 pm

- The Lineage for the Nine Deity Mandala is slightly different to the five and Drogon Rechen Chenpo as a pre-incarnation of the first Situ Rinpoche is more a devotional thing much like Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye are traced back to the time of the Buddha and great teachers such as Vairochana.
-
- However without suggesting such is in anyway incorrect, it should not be mandatory to take this too literally.
-
- I just looked up the lineages in the respective mandala rituals (Choga):
-
- The nine Deity Mandala lineage goes: Lokeshvara, Padmavajra, Jalendhara, Maitripa, Vajrapani, Bhandata Sumatikirti, Rechung Dharma Kirti, Lama Zangri Repa , Drogon Repa Chenpo , Gyalse Pomdrakpa, Drupchen Karma Pakshi etc etc.
-
- The five deity mandala: Dharmakaya Amitabha, Sambhogakaya Mahakarunikaya, Nirmanakaya Padmasambhava, Ekajanani Siddha Rajni, Tipupavimalamitra, Rechung Vajrakirti, Lama Zangri Repa, Drogon Repa Cnenpo , Gyalse Pomdragpa then Drupchen Karmapakshi.
-
- The two lineages then travel similarly except the five deity mandala has Mahasiddha Karma Chagme which the nine does not.
-
- It is worth remembering that this transmission of Jinasagara (which BTW is not the only transmission) was one of the nine whispered teachings of the "Formless Dakinis (the Rechungpa brought back from India) and so was initially bound by a command seal that permitted each lineage holder to only transmit it to one person for 13 generations. This "one to one" lineage expired around the time of the fifth Karmapa when it became more widely practiced and hence went to and via Karma Chagme Rinpoche. It is still considered "the life blood" of the Dakinis as mentioned in "The Gem of many colours".
-
- One Lama I knew and who kindly taught me a lot and has now passed to the pureland, said that in Tibet, Karma Kagyu practitioners would practice Vajrayogini, Chakrasamvara, the six yogas etc and then when they were elderly they would receive teachings on Jinasagara and Mahamudra with Dzogchen and practice thus for the remainder of their lives. So Jinasagara is still considered difficult to receive teachings on though the abhisheka is often given by high Karma Kagyu Lamas as a connection and blessing.

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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby conebeckham » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:57 pm

Karma Sherab wrote:Here is a point to "bake one's noodle" (excuse the plagiarized quote please).

The Gampo Abbey account says that "Lokeshvara Mahakarunikaya Jinasagara Avalokitesvara" ( Tib: Jigtenwangchuk Tug je chenpo Gyalwa Gyatso Chenrezi) - to refer to Him with the full name used in the Mandala Ritual Sadhana and the Great Commentary by the first Karma Chagme; is said to be father Tantra.


This is the Nine Deity practice, right?

Is it perhaps possible that the 9 deity practice is related more to Father Tantra, a la Guhyasamaja?

the 5 deity mandala is composed of dieties who are significantly different than the main yabyum, correct, while the nine deity mandala deities have more similar aspects......??
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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Karma Sherab » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:24 am

Hi Cone,

I am not trying to be intentionally evasive but I have not been able to get a straight answer or anything definative on this issue.

I proposed exactly your question to Thrangu Rinpoche maybe 20 years ago and he said no, both (9 and 5) are "Father Tantra".

Bokar Rinpoche and the rest suggest that both 5 and 9 deity mandalas are actually mother tantra.

The way the body mandala is invoked in the nine deity mandala is like Chakrasamvara (i.e. using Tummo). The extensive use of both Generation stage as in Guhyasamaja in the outerpractice (Father Tantra) and then Mother tantra inner secret etc and finally other methods in integrated and most secret practice may put it into other categories and hence Khyentse Rinpoche, Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche and some agreement wrom Bokar Rinpoche, suggests non dual.

Even Thrangu Rinpoche, albeit somewhat tacitly, agreed to this latter idea.

I am not sure what this means but Thrangu Rinpoche's line of this being Father Tantra is based on not its techniques or methods of practice which he agreed could have elements of Mother, Father and non dual tantra) but its "tradition".

As in an earlier post however, Kongtrul lists this tantra as a mother tantra.

Essentially the difference in the nine and five besides the deities in the outer inner and secret practices really comes down to the five deity mandala being a "short" secret terma line whereas the nine is the conventional long line which Bokar Rinpoche compared to Kalachakra, Hevajra, Chakrasamvara and the like.


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Re: Gyalwa Gyatso / Red Avalokiteshvara / Jinasagara

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:56 pm

Sergei wrote:Can anyone explain this deity to me? (I post the question here, because I understand that he is primarily a Kagyu deity, but I may well be mistaken in this.) For example, there seem to be two tantric versions of Chenrezig--him and Hayagriva. Do they have different meanings? Why does Kagyu (or perhaps just Karma Kagyu) emphasize this deity? What about him makes him higher than white Chenrezig? (Surely more than just color.)

Also, I have seen very different-looking pictures of Red Avalokiteshvara. In one, he looks just like four-armed Chenrezig, except colored red. In another he has only two arms, and is in union with a consort who may or may not be Vajrayogini. I think there are others as well. How did this iconography develop, historically?

Thank you!


There is another red form of Chenrezig known as Khorwa Dongtruk (sometimes written "Korwa Tongtrug"). He is usually depicted with two arms, and is standing. It was the empowerment of this form that HH the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa gave to 20,000 disciples who congregated at Tsurphu a day or two after he was enthroned and his hair was cut at the Jokhang in front of the Jowo Rinpoche.
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