Organ Donor?

[Mandarava]

I was on the organ donor list.
Then I went to techings on 'The Bardo' in Birmingham, U.K and someone asked the teacher a question about organ donation and if it was good or bad for the person who had just entered into the Bardo.The teacher said that it was bad in fact he said it was very bad because when we first die, we don't realise we're dead so It's very important for the people around the dead body to stay as calm as possible under the circumstances.The teacher went on to say that If ones body is taken away immediately so the organs can be removed, then this is going to bring a lot of stress to the person who's still hanging around his/her body and because of this stress,the journey through the Bardo will start off badly.The person will feel upset,worry and confussion as to what's happening to his/her body.
The teacher was Mingyur Rinpoche. So I'm listening to him.

[Dechen Norbu]

Well, that's a dilemma. If my organs save someone else's life, I think it wouldn't be compassionate to deny them, especially if I'm not sure if I'll have any control at all in the bardo. So I really don't know what to make of it, but so far I'm still and organ donor. If my experience or my teacher tells me that I should act differently, then I'll revise my position on this.
You see, it's just a matter of imagining someone agonizing to death, his suffering, the suffering of his family and loved ones, all that pain that I could avoid for some time and chose not to, leaving my dead body taking perfectly good organs to the grave. I prefer to take my chances in the bardo than die with such unhappiness and remorse. Maybe I'm a fool, but I think the stress of knowing that someone could die just because I kept my dead organs would do worse than losing them after death while I'm still going through the bardo... I respect your teacher a lot, so there's the dilemma...

[Paul]

The way I think of it is that you will benefit yourself and others more if you practice 100% according to your teacher's instructions - far more than giving someone a few more years of life. This will be damaged if your organs are taken whilst you would be normally in tukdam.

However, that is if you practice at 100%. If you're going to be lazy and not actually bother getting as liberated as you can, then it will probably be best to give your organs thereby helping others and gaining merit.

[Dechen Norbu]

Yes, that's the thing. Relative vs Ultimate benefit. A serious practitioner shouldn't waste his next life to provide relative benefit. Still, one has to be very certain about his motivation. The devil is in the details. Attachment to one's body may be very damaging at the time of death. So are we really doing it for the sake of getting to the point of providing ultimate benefit while denying relative or are we still greatly attached to our body, to the point of letting someone else die? Only a few can really answer this.
Also, only a small few practice at 100% of their capacities. Basically this situation is the same as with sedatives at the time of death. If one is a damn good practitioner, one shouldn't take them. If one isn't, it's worse not taking them as agonizing pain will generate a less beneficial state of mind when one faces death.
This is not a simple question. Motivation is key.

[Thug4lyfe]

I've read on "Exhortation to develope the Bodhi mind" that it's very hard for the consciousness to leave the body and the process is a bit sore as well. I guess thats where are training comes in? To be able to let go of life asap when need to? be like the emokid! Die, damn you die!!!!

oh yeah, and not to mention all the stories about the high practitioner's body staying fresh for ages after death.

[catmoon]

What worries me is that I might be sitting there, in meditation position, no heartbeat, respiration or brainwaves, doing a final 2 week meditation when someone comes along and whisks me away to the abbatoir.

[Dechen Norbu]

[Mandarava]

You see, it's just a matter of imagining someone agonizing to death, his suffering, the suffering of his family and loved ones, all that pain that I could avoid for some time and chose not to, leaving my dead body taking perfectly good organs to the grave.

mmmmmmm Makes you think,Or should I say makes me think since you put it like that.

And I also think that here in the West, the body will be taken away quite quickly.In fact someone will be wanting the bed so the body will be rushed off to the the mortuary and put in the freezer.I bet that's distressing to the dead person also.

[Dechen Norbu]

It seems so. But follow your teacher advice, not mine! If he says you shouldn't, speak with him about it if you have doubts. He may have his thing going in a certain way with his students and I don't wanna mess with it! As I said, I have a lot of respect for your teacher. I just shared my personal feelings about this. Paul made a good point, one we should take note.

All the best!

[Mandarava]

It seems so. But follow your teacher advice, not mine! If he says you shouldn't, speak with him about it if you have doubts. He may have his thing going in a certain way with his students and I don't wanna mess with it! As I said, I have a lot of respect for your teacher. I just shared my personal feelings about this. Paul made a good point, one we should take note.

All the best!

Yes I know.Does make you think though.We do things so much more differently in the West.I can just imagine what would happen if I went for a sky burrial here in the valley.

[JinpaRangdrol]

@Kalden Yungdrung,
I hope you realize that our consciousness doesn't actually reside in the red blood-pumping organ, but rather at our heart CENTER. It's a feature of our complex channel system, not our actual mundane physiology. You can't take someone's heart out of their body and find their consciousness. So your worries about using somebody else's heart should be lessened.
Personally, I know a few people who have received organ transplants, and not one of them chose to live a "luxurious," ungrateful life. Actually, people who are given a second chance at life due to the compassion of another person, in my experience, tend to be extremely grateful and live their life to the fullest.

I am currently registered as an organ donor, but I have actually been considering taking my name off of the list. I suppose I just need to ask my Lama about it, but it's always been a question of either allowing myself the time I would need to attain liberation at the moment of death, or literally offering my body as a Chodpa. I would love to see the results of an organ transplant with the heart, lungs, etc. of an accomplished Chodpa. If they are able to practice through the process, perhaps the physical organs would carry some kind of blessing?
Personally, I would like my body to be fed to wolves upon death. That would be the most satisfying disposal of my body that I can imagine...

[Yudron]

You guys are talking about donating organs after death. Why not do it now? There are many people on dialysis awaiting a new kidney right now,and a kidney from living donor is much better than one from a dead donor. People who are under 70 and in good health can definitely find someone who is a match to offer a kidney to at their local transplant center. You don't need to be a relative of the recipient.

[Knotty Veneer]

I practise Chod regularly and I carry an organ donor card.

Recently, on a local radio station I listened to a story about a guy (non-Buddhist) who donated one of his kidneys to a stranger. He was inspired by the stories of people on dialysis who die waiting for a transplant and took the time to read up on the dangers of life with one kidney and decided it was not a big risk. He entered a screening program at a local hospital and was matched with a complete stranger who had no family to help them.

He did not sell the organ and never met the recipient. What's more he had to take two weeks of his annual holiday time off work to do it!

I hope someday my compassion will be developed enough to do something like that!

[Yudron]

I practise Chod regularly and I carry an organ donor card.

Recently, on a local radio station I listened to a story about a guy (non-Buddhist) who donated one of his kidneys to a stranger. He was inspired by the stories of people on dialysis who die waiting for a transplant and took the time to read up on the dangers of life with one kidney and decided it was not a big risk. He entered a screening program at a local hospital and was matched with a complete stranger who had no family to help them.

He did not sell the organ and never met the recipient. What's more he had to take two weeks of his annual holiday time off work to do it!

I hope someday my compassion will be developed enough to do something like that!

These kidney donors who don't care who they give the organ to are incredibly valuable because they may be the key to multiple people receiving kidneys. How? Sometimes a person who needs a kidney has someone who wants to give a kidney to them, but is not a match in terms of blood type or other factors. Using a computer matching program, that potential donor can be matched to another person who needs a kidney, and that person's non-matching donor can be matched to another party and so forth. This cascade effect can result in multiple people receiving kidneys -- sometimes not even in the same locale. Recently, the transplant unit at California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco had 10 people have transplants on the same day because of this "paired donor" program. The transplant nurse coordinator there told me, this cascade is often made possible by one altruistic donor, a person who walks in off the street just wanting to offer a kidney to someone.

http://www.cpmc.org/advanced/kidney/pat ... idney.html[url]

[Knotty Veneer]

These kidney donors who don't care who they give the organ to are incredibly valuable because they may be the key to multiple people receiving kidneys. How? Sometimes a person who needs a kidney has someone who wants to give a kidney to them, but is not a match in terms of blood type or other factors. Using a computer matching program, that potential donor can be matched to another person who needs a kidney, and that person's non-matching donor can be matched to another party and so forth. This cascade effect can result in multiple people receiving kidneys -- sometimes not even in the same locale. Recently, the transplant unit at California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco had 10 people have transplants on the same day because of this "paired donor" program. The transplant nurse coordinator there told me, this cascade is often made possible by one altruistic donor, a person who walks in off the street just wanting to offer a kidney to someone.

http://www.cpmc.org/advanced/kidney/pat ... idney.html[url]

It's amazing, isn't it! We should all rejoice in the benefit such people perform. I only wish I was not so scared and attached to my body to do something similar.

[kalden yungdrung]

@Kalden Yungdrung,

I hope you realize that our consciousness doesn't actually reside in the red blood-pumping organ, but rather at our heart CENTER. It's a feature of our complex channel system, not our actual mundane physiology. You can't take someone's heart out of their body and find their consciousness. So your worries about using somebody else's heart should be lessened.

Tashi delek,

Like you would have read is a donor not the method to help somebody.
For a greedy person is a new heart senseless. So there are a lot of persons who like to prolongue their lives because they are nihilists. After death there is nothing at all. So what does make it for sense here to donate.
besides that the poor ones in the third world sell their child's organs.......


Yes the mind resides in the heart but not the memory.
A strange heart is very strange imo. i mean to get the own heart replaced. That must be a strange kind of feeling.


Then the body doesn't accept strange organs, the body creates / makes anti bodies to the transplanted organ.
That was the greatest risk regarding these manipulations. The law of Hipocratus is against /contra these kind of surgery. So for the bodie's physiology it is a contra indication, the transpalnted organ. But we make a tonlerance out of it, because our mind is here the eminent factor.

I mean if live ends then we go like a wolf to a solitary place and die there. But here is no fear and i have so the impression that for the most donor patients, does count that we must live as long as possible because after death everything is finished.

So i would say imo add to the compassion some wisdom and that would be better.

Prevention that does prolongue live also. prevention like Dharma practice, good TCM or TTM / aryuveda doctor.
good ehics is also very important to avoid certain illnesses or maybe all.

Because there is prevention i go for the living people who i can help at the moment with as well physical as psychical problems. So what is as priority seen, that is for me more the preventive side of this story.

In Dzogchen is it important to attain the rainbow body. Here the body disappears and nothing than nails and some hair is left. So here we do need the body at a certain place and not at the op. table.

For others the body does need to be kept in silence after the disconnecting of mind with body.
The period can vary and here is also no conatct with the body possible.

So i have realy so my doubts about to be on that list and i can fully agree to get off that list, lke you did argued.

By the way there are during live enough methods in Tantra to be of use (compassion/ rituals like Chu tor, Sang chod, Chod, Menla death rituals, etc.) for the people.


Mutsug Marro
KY







Personally, I know a few people who have received organ transplants, and not one of them chose to live a "luxurious," ungrateful life. Actually, people who are given a second chance at life due to the compassion of another person, in my experience, tend to be extremely grateful and live their life to the fullest.

I am currently registered as an organ donor, but I have actually been considering taking my name off of the list. I suppose I just need to ask my Lama about it, but it's always been a question of either allowing myself the time I would need to attain liberation at the moment of death, or literally offering my body as a Chodpa. I would love to see the results of an organ transplant with the heart, lungs, etc. of an accomplished Chodpa. If they are able to practice through the process, perhaps the physical organs would carry some kind of blessing?
Personally, I would like my body to be fed to wolves upon death. That would be the most satisfying disposal of my body that I can imagine...

[kalden yungdrung]

@Kalden Yungdrung,

I hope you realize that our consciousness doesn't actually reside in the red blood-pumping organ, but rather at our heart CENTER. It's a feature of our complex channel system, not our actual mundane physiology. You can't take someone's heart out of their body and find their consciousness. So your worries about using somebody else's heart should be lessened.

Tashi delek,

Like you would have read is a donor not the method to help somebody.
For a greedy person is a new heart senseless. So there are a lot of persons who like to prolongue their lives because they are nihilists. After death there is nothing at all. So what does make it for sense here to donate.
besides that the poor ones in the third world sell their child's organs.......


Yes the mind resides in the heart but not the memory.
A strange heart is very strange imo. i mean to get the own heart replaced. That must be a strange kind of feeling.


Then the body doesn't accept strange organs, the body creates / makes anti bodies to the transplanted organ.
That was the greatest risk regarding these manipulations. The law of Hipocratus is against /contra these kind of surgery. So for the bodie's physiology it is a contra indication, the transpalnted organ. But we make a tonlerance out of it, because our mind is here the eminent factor.

I mean if live ends then we go like a wolf to a solitary place and die there. But here is no fear and i have so the impression that for the most donor patients, does count that we must live as long as possible because after death everything is finished.

So i would say imo add to the compassion some wisdom and that would be better.

Prevention that does prolongue live also. prevention like Dharma practice, good TCM or TTM / aryuveda doctor.
good ehics is also very important to avoid certain illnesses or maybe all.

Because there is prevention i go for the living people who i can help at the moment with as well physical as psychical problems. So what is as priority seen, that is for me more the preventive side of this story.

In Dzogchen is it important to attain the rainbow body. Here the body disappears and nothing than nails and some hair is left. So here we do need the body at a certain place and not at the op. table.

For others the body does need to be kept in silence after the disconnecting of mind with body.
The period can vary and here is also no conatct with the body possible.

So i have realy so my doubts about to be on that list and i can fully agree to get off that list, lke you did argued.

By the way there are during live enough methods in Tantra to be of use (compassion/ rituals like Chu tor, Sang chod, Chod, Menla death rituals, etc.) for the people.

The merits gained by explaining emptiness to someone and this is right understood etc. then i guess this is better than to donate an organ. it is for the mind and not for the body that we do it or go for it. For the body as well mind one has to do the related practice etc.

Mutsug Marro
KY







Personally, I know a few people who have received organ transplants, and not one of them chose to live a "luxurious," ungrateful life. Actually, people who are given a second chance at life due to the compassion of another person, in my experience, tend to be extremely grateful and live their life to the fullest.

I am currently registered as an organ donor, but I have actually been considering taking my name off of the list. I suppose I just need to ask my Lama about it, but it's always been a question of either allowing myself the time I would need to attain liberation at the moment of death, or literally offering my body as a Chodpa. I would love to see the results of an organ transplant with the heart, lungs, etc. of an accomplished Chodpa. If they are able to practice through the process, perhaps the physical organs would carry some kind of blessing?
Personally, I would like my body to be fed to wolves upon death. That would be the most satisfying disposal of my body that I can imagine...

[Yudron]

These kidney donors who don't care who they give the organ to are incredibly valuable because they may be the key to multiple people receiving kidneys. How? Sometimes a person who needs a kidney has someone who wants to give a kidney to them, but is not a match in terms of blood type or other factors. Using a computer matching program, that potential donor can be matched to another person who needs a kidney, and that person's non-matching donor can be matched to another party and so forth. This cascade effect can result in multiple people receiving kidneys -- sometimes not even in the same locale. Recently, the transplant unit at California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco had 10 people have transplants on the same day because of this "paired donor" program. The transplant nurse coordinator there told me, this cascade is often made possible by one altruistic donor, a person who walks in off the street just wanting to offer a kidney to someone.

http://www.cpmc.org/advanced/kidney/pat ... idney.html[url]

It's amazing, isn't it! We should all rejoice in the benefit such people perform. I only wish I was not so scared and attached to my body to do something similar.

Oh, it's not that big a deal, kidneys are removed by laparoscopy these days--they bring the kidney out through a tube. So, a few holes punched in your abdomen, a few days in the hospital, six weeks rest, and then you live a normal life. Doesn't shorten one's lifespan at all, and it is like to prolong the life of the recipient.

That being said, one should really consult with one's lama about whether it is best to make this offering oneself--depends on a lot of factors that can be related to what practice one specializes in.

[Simon]

For those of you who are interested in becoming a living kidney donor to an unknown person, the following programme is available as a Podcast:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01l1dk3

[Knotty Veneer]

if you are in the UK an interesting short documentary following a guy who is giving a kidney to a stranger:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/my-kidney-and-me/4od