the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thug4lyfe » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:38 am

Are Free range eggs fertalised by the Rooster's sperm already? If thats the case, then cage eggs might be better, because fertalised eggs are sure to become life.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:10 am

Food_Eatah wrote:Are Free range eggs fertalised by the Rooster's sperm already? If thats the case, then cage eggs might be better, because fertalised eggs are sure to become life.

Whether free range eggs are fertilized or not depends, at least a little, on whether one has a rooster. It is possible to feed chickens some laying pellets with harmonies to make them lay eggs, let them roam free without a rooster, and have unfertilized eggs.
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Re: Veganism

Postby tobes » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:17 am

deepbluehum wrote:I've been doing it for some time now, and I feel better than I have ever felt. Everyone in my family says I look fantastic. YMMV. But I don't do it like a religion. If I'm visiting some family and they are eating some meat, I will take a little so as not to upset them.



I really admire this ethical approach. I think being able to fluidly adapt to particular situations is really important when considering diet - on both health and moral grounds. Especially, to consider other people ~ this is really a nice example of upaya and karuna.

I should add, that so many people are obsessed about preserving (or demanding) their particular diets in all times and in all places - no matter what this produces in terms of physical health or perceived moral virtue, it doesn't strike me as an expression of a healthy state of mind.

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Re: Veganism

Postby edearl » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:10 am

Although, The Truth about Protein and Calcium does not recommend a vegan diet, it does say,
In fact, a federal advisory committee's recommendation to the Secretaries of Agriculture and Health and Human Services cites vegetarian diets as a healthy choice for Americans. A host of leading nutrition experts joined in calling for a massive revision of the USDA's Dietary Guidelines for Americans, the blueprint for all federal nutrition programs. William Castelli, M.D. (Director of the Framingham Heart Study), Benjamin Spock, M.D., Henry Heimlich, M.D., Dean Ornish, M.D., William C. Roberts, M.D. (Editor of the American Journal of Cardiology) and many others proposed moving vegetables, fruits, grains, and legumes to the center of the plate, leaving meats, dairy products, and added oils strictly optional. They joined the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine in submitting a proposal with over a hundred scientific references, showing that vegetarian diets can lead to dramatic reductions in the risk of heart disease, cancer, obesity, and other health risks, something that "lean meat" diets cannot even approach. In response, the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee reported that vegetarians "enjoy excellent health." The Committee also reflected the American Dietetic Association's official statements that vegetarians easily get more than enough protein, even without careful planning or intentional "protein complementing."[5]

This means that one does not need a degree in biochemistry to have a healthy balanced diet consisting of grains, vegetables, fruits and legumes. Any person whose diet does not primarily consist of empty calories will be assured a proper protein intake, be it through a peanut butter sandwich on whole wheat, or rice with vegan chili. A completely vegan diet which includes sufficient, nutritious calories will provide everyone with all the essential nutrients for a healthy life.

With "meats, dairy products, and added oils strictly optional," they almost recommend a vegan diet, and the last sentence of the quote indicates a vegan diet is a good one.
Ref: https://www.msu.edu/~corcora5/food/vega ... otein.html
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Veganism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:26 pm

tobes wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I've been doing it for some time now, and I feel better than I have ever felt. Everyone in my family says I look fantastic. YMMV. But I don't do it like a religion. If I'm visiting some family and they are eating some meat, I will take a little so as not to upset them.



I really admire this ethical approach. I think being able to fluidly adapt to particular situations is really important when considering diet - on both health and moral grounds. Especially, to consider other people ~ this is really a nice example of upaya and karuna.

I should add, that so many people are obsessed about preserving (or demanding) their particular diets in all times and in all places - no matter what this produces in terms of physical health or perceived moral virtue, it doesn't strike me as an expression of a healthy state of mind.

:anjali:

Very well said. I fully agree.
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Re: Veganism

Postby edearl » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:21 pm

tobes wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I've been doing it for some time now, and I feel better than I have ever felt. Everyone in my family says I look fantastic. YMMV. But I don't do it like a religion. If I'm visiting some family and they are eating some meat, I will take a little so as not to upset them.



I really admire this ethical approach. I think being able to fluidly adapt to particular situations is really important when considering diet - on both health and moral grounds. Especially, to consider other people ~ this is really a nice example of upaya and karuna.

I should add, that so many people are obsessed about preserving (or demanding) their particular diets in all times and in all places - no matter what this produces in terms of physical health or perceived moral virtue, it doesn't strike me as an expression of a healthy state of mind.

:anjali:

One can change their personal diet preferences, with effort--often great effort. I once ate double cheeseburgers, but slowly weaned myself from them. Now, all the fat in hamburger meat disagrees with my palate--almost disgusting.
Metta
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Re: Veganism

Postby tobes » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:51 am

edearl wrote:One can change their personal diet preferences, with effort--often great effort. I once ate double cheeseburgers, but slowly weaned myself from them. Now, all the fat in hamburger meat disagrees with my palate--almost disgusting.
Metta


No doubt - diet is nothing but habit; habits can always be changed. If Buddhism teaches us nothing else, it surely teaches us that.

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Re: Veganism

Postby edearl » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:58 am

tobes wrote:
edearl wrote:
One can change their personal diet preferences, with effort--often great effort. I once ate double cheeseburgers, but slowly weaned myself from them. Now, all the fat in hamburger meat disagrees with my palate--almost disgusting.
Metta


No doubt - diet is nothing but habit; habits can always be changed. If Buddhism teaches us nothing else, it surely teaches us that.
:anjali:


Fortunately, changing ones dietary preferences is easier than dieting to change one's weight, which is physiological rather than purely habit.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Veganism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:10 am

I suppose good on da blokes datz got the discipline and will power to keep the vegan diet. Although, if you is abit tubby, then lose some weight!
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Re: Veganism

Postby edearl » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:48 am

Food_Eatah wrote:I suppose good on da blokes datz got the discipline and will power to keep the vegan diet. Although, if you is abit tubby, then lose some weight!

Working toward both; although, going vegan is by far the easier of the two.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Veganism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:44 pm

I am not fat, only big boned!
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Re: Veganism

Postby Maizuru » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:09 am

tobes wrote:I really admire this ethical approach. I think being able to fluidly adapt to particular situations is really important when considering diet - on both health and moral grounds. Especially, to consider other people ~ this is really a nice example of upaya and karuna.

I should add, that so many people are obsessed about preserving (or demanding) their particular diets in all times and in all places - no matter what this produces in terms of physical health or perceived moral virtue, it doesn't strike me as an expression of a healthy state of mind.

:anjali:


While there is something to be said for being fluid, there is also something to be said about having firm convictions and beliefs. And yes, I am one of those people who do stick to a vegan diet at all times in all places because I disagree very strongly with the treatment of animals in our society. Since you have stated that this is an unhealthy state of mind, perhaps you will reconsider if I tell you my story of how I became a vegan.

When I was 15, I went dove hunting with my family, and fatally wounded a dove. I was told that we were supposed to be "compassionate" and put the animal out of its misery, but since we were doing this "for the meat" I could not simply shoot it at point-blank range - I needed to kill it with my bare hands. I picked up the bird, and with it shaking with fear in my hands, it looked me in the eyes with such overwhelming sadness. Steadying myself, I tried to break its neck. However, the head came completely off, and it started spurting hot blood all over my hands. It also began flapping its wings even though its head was gone.

I was heart-broken. I realized that animals are living beings who feel pain, bleed warm blood, and do not want to die. I vowed to never eat meat again.

As a result, I became a vegetarian before it was fashionable to do so; at the time, I thought perhaps it was even bad for my health. I said that I would rather become sick and die rather than kill other living beings to survive. I would never again have a part of this.

I feel very strongly that animals should have rights not to be imprisoned, tortured, or killed. They are not simply property that can be used however anyone wants. I feel that many people just do not realize this - see for example this ad which is currently running on various television networks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_XdcY8a1iM

Working for the betterment of all living beings has been one of my guiding principles in life; it was what drew me initially to Buddhism, and in many ways it is even more important to me than Buddhism. I don't force my convictions on others, but do hope that people will awaken to the fact that "meat" is actually the flesh of a living, breathing thing that was killed against its will. It is an unnecessary brutality that I hope will end as soon as possible. Even if it doesn't, I want no part of it.

So, now that you have heard my particular story, does my insistence on preserving my own diet that I have vowed to keep still strike you as an unhealthy state of mind?
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Re: Veganism

Postby Maizuru » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:23 am

The point of my above post was not actually seeking approval - the final question was a rhetorical one. My point is rather that there is no way to good way to judge the actions of others without being in their shoes. Each of our actions have consequences. If people make skillful choices - those choices that are beneficial to themselves and to others - they will experience happiness; if they make unskillful choices - those choices that are harmful to themselves and others - they will experience suffering. Judging the actions of others is a very dangerous business to get into; as the Dalai Lama said, it is far better to see one fault in yourself than one thousand faults in someone else. I know your post was well-intentioned, but I just felt like pointing that out and sharing my story. I wish you the best. :buddha1:
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Re: Veganism

Postby tobes » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:41 am

Maizuru wrote:
While there is something to be said for being fluid, there is also something to be said about having firm convictions and beliefs. And yes, I am one of those people who do stick to a vegan diet at all times in all places because I disagree very strongly with the treatment of animals in our society. Since you have stated that this is an unhealthy state of mind, perhaps you will reconsider if I tell you my story of how I became a vegan.

When I was 15, I went dove hunting with my family, and fatally wounded a dove. I was told that we were supposed to be "compassionate" and put the animal out of its misery, but since we were doing this "for the meat" I could not simply shoot it at point-blank range - I needed to kill it with my bare hands. I picked up the bird, and with it shaking with fear in my hands, it looked me in the eyes with such overwhelming sadness. Steadying myself, I tried to break its neck. However, the head came completely off, and it started spurting hot blood all over my hands. It also began flapping its wings even though its head was gone.

I was heart-broken. I realized that animals are living beings who feel pain, bleed warm blood, and do not want to die. I vowed to never eat meat again.

As a result, I became a vegetarian before it was fashionable to do so; at the time, I thought perhaps it was even bad for my health. I said that I would rather become sick and die rather than kill other living beings to survive. I would never again have a part of this.

I feel very strongly that animals should have rights not to be imprisoned, tortured, or killed. They are not simply property that can be used however anyone wants. I feel that many people just do not realize this - see for example this ad which is currently running on various television networks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_XdcY8a1iM

Working for the betterment of all living beings has been one of my guiding principles in life; it was what drew me initially to Buddhism, and in many ways it is even more important to me than Buddhism. I don't force my convictions on others, but do hope that people will awaken to the fact that "meat" is actually the flesh of a living, breathing thing that was killed against its will. It is an unnecessary brutality that I hope will end as soon as possible. Even if it doesn't, I want no part of it.

So, now that you have heard my particular story, does my insistence on preserving my own diet that I have vowed to keep still strike you as an unhealthy state of mind?



I suppose, in response, I really admire and respect your commitment - especially because it is so palpably based on compassion.

But if you don't mind me pressing you a little philosophically - it is the situations where your personal intention and action does not in any way contribute to the suffering or death of an animal which I am interested in.

So, as an earlier poster wrote - a family has already made a dish which contains some meat in it. You're at the table. There is already a little too much food, whatever is left over will be thrown away.

So, refusing to eat the dish does not actually help the animal, who has already perished.

The intentional act of refusing the dish does at least two things: 1/ It makes it clear that you have a strong ethical position on animals and meat eating, 2/ It puts you at odds with the ethics of the family at the table.

Now, many vegetarians will consider it their ethical responsibility to 'raise the consciousness' of those who have not taken a similar ethical position. In this respect, 1/ & 2/ are both good things - it offers an opportunity to promote a wholesome ethical view, and maybe that will influence just one other person on the table to eat less or no meat, and so, ultimately benefit more animals.

Even if one is humble and does not discuss it overtly, the action of abstaining from the dish could still have that (potentially good) effect.

However, my particular problem with that reasoning, is that it fails to adequately account for the range of different moral theories which people subscribe to, and often tacitly assumes that other people do not have sufficient ethical positions on the question of animals and meat eating.

In this respect, there is something a little too individualist about the moral stance of not eating the dish - instead of the accepting the generosity of someone cooking for you, one is demanding (perhaps tacitly) an ethical response. Instead of seeing the interests of the family, one is singling out the interests of an animal which has already passed away.....that to me, is something of an ethical sleight of hand, particularly if the grounding principle is that of compassion.

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Re: Veganism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:12 am

tsaphir wrote: I tried being vegan for a 3 months and had to stop it as within that short amount of time I developed nutritional edema, fatty liver disease, and high cholesterol, none of which I had previously. Even though I ate many lentils, beans, and other vegan sources of protein it was not enough and really damaged my body. After I developed nutritional edema and couldn't even lock my bedroom door so if I drowned in my sleep (from fluid in my lungs) someone would find my body, I started eating meat again, not but hours later I started feeling better and within 2 days my ankles the size of a pregnant woman's drained of fluid, my liver ALT gradually came down, and my cholesterol levels have improved also.
Even though this post is obviously a troll I will reply anyway. It is actually quite likely that this happened. I think that you will find that the problem is not one of veganism per se but probably based in the lack of a certain type of enzyme produced by the human body that is required to break down some of the "toxic" (to you) constituents found in some legumes. This may have lead to an allergic reaction resulting in the symptoms you describe. The (genetic) condition is called Favaism. It may also be due to your increased consumption of nuts. There is also a genetically based allergic condition to nuts (mainly peanuts). Have you checked your gluten intolerance levels? Vegans tend to eat more grains so...

The reasons you had this reaction are many and varied, it is unlikely that they were due to your veganism because there are lots of vegans out there living a healthy life. Consult an allergologist before you ever decide to go vegan again.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Veganism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:33 pm

tobes wrote:I suppose, in response, I really admire and respect your commitment - especially because it is so palpably based on compassion.

[...]

In this respect, there is something a little too individualist about the moral stance of not eating the dish - instead of the accepting the generosity of someone cooking for you, one is demanding (perhaps tacitly) an ethical response. Instead of seeing the interests of the family, one is singling out the interests of an animal which has already passed away.....that to me, is something of an ethical sleight of hand, particularly if the grounding principle is that of compassion.

:anjali:

:good: One of the best concise analysis I've read regarding this matter.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:06 am

I have tried vegetarianism many times and have always failed. Any tips on how to have success for a person with strong cravings for meat?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby ground » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:22 am

Ryoto wrote:I have tried vegetarianism many times and have always failed. Any tips on how to have success for a person with strong cravings for meat?

Practice should entail decrease of cravings.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:48 pm

Well I follow four out of five precepts quite well which includes the first precept of non killing...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby edearl » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:58 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Ryoto wrote:I have tried vegetarianism many times and have always failed. Any tips on how to have success for a person with strong cravings for meat?

Practice should entail decrease of cravings.

Kind regards

I agree! When young I loved cheeseburgers, but decided they were bad for me. I stopped eating them--many times. Eventually, I lost my craving for cheeseburgers, and really stopped eating them. My wife does like them, and some years back, I had a bite from one of her burgers--I disliked it. One likes what they eat, which is contrary to what most people think.
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