Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
No, the debt crises was caused by Wall Street, not by Europe.




According to multiple sources the Greek debt crisis was directly caused by their socialistic policies.

I already posted links to substantiate this in earlier threads.

Or just watch the nightly news.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:56 pm

alwayson wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Agree ... it's just that alwayson forgot that by that time he was European

Sönam



I'm Indian.

You know from South Asia.



Oh, don't worry ... it will last :tongue:

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:01 pm

Sönam wrote:
alwayson wrote:I hate the fact that the American economy is at the complete mercy of Europe's socialism/debt problems.

Europe has been causing the world's problems for centuries........colonization of Africa, Asia, New World (slaughtering all the Mayans, Aztecs etc.)....... World Wars 1 & 2............and now this socialism / debt stuff.


a real question: who told you that ?

Sönam



World Wars 1 & 2 were mainly European stuff. The Germans etc.

Europeans colonized Africa, Asia, New World, and various other places since like the 1400's, causing cultural destruction and even open genocide.

Your European debt crisis is holding back the American economy for a couple of years now.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:18 pm

alwayson wrote:
Sönam wrote:
alwayson wrote:I hate the fact that the American economy is at the complete mercy of Europe's socialism/debt problems.

Europe has been causing the world's problems for centuries........colonization of Africa, Asia, New World (slaughtering all the Mayans, Aztecs etc.)....... World Wars 1 & 2............and now this socialism / debt stuff.


a real question: who told you that ?

Sönam



World Wars 1 & 2 were mainly European stuff. The Germans etc.

Europeans colonized Africa, Asia, New World, and various other places since like the 1400's, causing cultural destruction and even open genocide.

Your European debt crisis is holding back the American economy for a couple of years now.


you did'nt answer my question, you're just adding more craps to the previous ... by the way when Europeans colonized, and so on, American were European.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:26 pm

alwayson you haven't understood the truth yet. America is the Great Satan. This is the Main Idea Which Explains Everything. M'kay?

Rule number one: do not question the Main Idea Which Explains Everything.

Rule number two: see rule number one.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:32 pm

Sönam wrote:you did'nt answer my question
Sönam



I learned these things in school, just like anyone else.

In my high school, we even have an entire year dedicated specifically to European history. I actually was able to take it twice, one regular and one Advancement Placement.

I also took European history in college a couple of times (with slightly different focuses), figuring I already know it and would be an easy A.

So essentially I took European history about four times over the course of a lifetime. And that doesn't include the various other courses that could also be mentioned......

European history has alot of disturbing stuff.....
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:31 am

alwayson wrote:Your European debt crisis is holding back the American economy for a couple of years now.


That's nonsense. The European debt crisis is causing gyrations in the stock market. The stock market is and has been largely decoupled from the lives of most Americans since about 1991.

The American economy is held back by several actual factors: a reluctance for consumers to spend (this has been cited by economists across the board), the failure of business to hire people, the large backlog of foreclosures, immense private debt.

The European debt situation is not a major factor in any of the above. It's just something to talk about on "Squawk On The Street" and other financial news shows because it does affect perceptions of traders. Sadly the loss of jobs and outsourcing not so much.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:07 am

kirtu wrote:The European debt situation is not a major factor in any of the above. Kirt



It is and has been for a couple of years now.

For example, banks are not going to lend when they hold billions of dollars of uncertain European debts.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:40 am

alwayson wrote:
kirtu wrote:The European debt situation is not a major factor in any of the above. Kirt



It is and has been for a couple of years now.

For example, banks are not going to lend when they hold billions of dollars of uncertain European debts.


Nope - the failure of American capitalism is not born from European debt. It's completely the other way around - American debt and corporate failure in conjunction with European bank failure sparked the European debt crisis. American banks are not overexposed on European debt.

American banks are failing to lend because they became overly cautious after the 2007-2008 crash.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:03 am

kirtu wrote:American banks are not overexposed on European debt.

American banks are failing to lend because they became overly cautious after the 2007-2008 crash.

Kirt



I just saw it on CBS news tonight, which is why I mentioned it.

American firms (JP Morgan Chase, Citi, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, B of A) apparenly have a lot of European debt.

And now there is an Italian debt crisis.

Citi has 14.5 billion dollars of outstanding Italian debt alone


P.S. That is just one of an infinite number of reasons that the European debt crisis has been tanking the American economy for a couple of years now.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:18 am

It's an amazing situation. Governments around the world have discovered that by borrowing money they can artificially increase their living standards and gain votes, thereby remaining in power, where they can borrow more money to raise living standards further in a vicious cycle. Unfortunately, debt has risen to such astronomical levels that there is no hope of repayment ever occurring, and as this awareness spreads, the willingness to lend falters.

Suddenly it is a game of musical chairs. Without the chairs. Some people stop lending, or investing, which means those with large, longterm debts must look elsewhere to finance their debts. Interest rates climb, but the awareness of non repayability is still there, and the high interest rates put an end to the last vestiges of hope that repayments will ever occur. Suddenly nobody wants to lend. Governments go bankrupt, welfare, health services and education are unfunded, and the last bits of remaining government funds are poured into military and police in a last ditch effort to prevent the outraged citizenry from taking to the streeets and burning the cities to the ground.

Now outside of Greece, Italy and Spain, governments are not completely stupid. Aware of the fact that high debt is an unstable situation, they limit debt to avoid the above nightmare scenario. But they still want to be able to buy votes, so they skate as close to the edge of disaster as they think they can get away with. This time, it isn't working, because of a new factor.

The governments of Spain, Italy and Greece have realized that the situation threatens everyone, so they can safely skate far over the edge. They know that larger governments cannot afford to let them fall, because that would initiate the nightmare scenario. Basically they are holding the world economy hostage and demanding large sums of money or else. Where will the money come from?

Well, it will come from wealthier countries. But wait, they are all skating right on the edge already, remember? They can't borrow more without pushing the unstable debt into the nightmare zone. Uh oh.

Who is responsible? We are. We demand education for free, we demand unemployment insurance, we demand the most expensive medical treatments, we demand high wages, we demand military supremacy, and as a direct result governments go into debt to meet those demands.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:55 am

A brief modern history of Greece: Greece was occupied by the Ottoman Empire for 500 years and were kindly given a loan by the British to set up their state and to try and militarily finish off the remnants of the Ottoman Empire (a dismal military failure) at the behest European players.

Then there was WWI where Greece was involved in various military conflicts in the Balkan region (against German allies) just to have a Bavarian king imposed on them at the end of WWI by the major European players.

Then we had WWII. A large portion of the Greek debt is also due to the damage inflicted during WWII by the Nazi occupation. The Nazi government of Germany forced the Greek goverment to loan them huge sums of money of which they neve paid back. Greece also received no reparations from Germany at the end of WWII (which all of the other major European players did) and was then forced to restructure under the Marshall Plan.

It then slipped into a civil war which lead to (a US backed) military dictatorship (anything to stop the USSR) during which Cyprus was invaded by Turkey which lead to military stockpiling by both sides (kindly supplied, brought from that is, the major European players and the US). Greece spends 4.3% of its GDP on military spending, that's the 2nd highest percentage in Europe! The only country with a higher percentage is the Republic of Macedonia, and everybody is trying to get Greece to go to war with them over the use of various ancient symbols!!!

Add to this: corruption, government incompetency, a large unproductive (well, non-profit producing) civil service, capital flight to the Bulgaria (where the wages are 1/3 and the country is run by the mafia after the collapse of the Stalinist regime) after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, a non-functional tax collection system... the list goes on.

And one can get some sort of idea why Greece is in debt.

High social welfare? Bullshit! Greeks are lazy and don't work? Bullshit! Socialistic measures? Well yes and no. It was not so much the Socialistic measures but the fact that most of the money which was slated for investment was lost on government bribes and a lack of control mechanisms on how it was spent. Liberal sex culture??? WTF? How can this possibly lead to a debt crisis? Lazy youth culture? Well apart from the Nazi youth and Stalinist youth cultures I think you will find that kids everywhere in the world want to (and should) play. It's their prerogative.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:34 am

alwayson wrote:I just saw it on CBS news tonight, which is why I mentioned it.


CBS news ... now I understand !

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby tobes » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:23 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Add to this: corruption, government incompetency, a large unproductive (well, non-profit producing) civil service, capital flight to the Bulgaria (where the wages are 1/3 and the country is run by the mafia after the collapse of the Stalinist regime) after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, a non-functional tax collection system... the list goes on.

And one can get some sort of idea why Greece is in debt.

High social welfare? Bullshit! Greeks are lazy and don't work? Bullshit! Socialistic measures? Well yes and no. It was not so much the Socialistic measures but the fact that most of the money which was slated for investment was lost on government bribes and a lack of control mechanisms on how it was spent. Liberal sex culture??? WTF? How can this possibly lead to a debt crisis? Lazy youth culture? Well apart from the Nazi youth and Stalinist youth cultures I think you will find that kids everywhere in the world want to (and should) play. It's their prerogative.
:namaste:


Well said. The kinds of half baked phantasms imputed on Greece and Greek people by certain elements in the press are offensively blind.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby tobes » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:33 am

catmoon wrote:Who is responsible? We are. We demand education for free, we demand unemployment insurance, we demand the most expensive medical treatments, we demand high wages, we demand military supremacy, and as a direct result governments go into debt to meet those demands.


Totally disagree. The responsibility lies with the finance sector and the finance sector alone. They pushed for radical deregulations in the 70's & 80's. They resisted every attempt to re-regulate - and still resist, despite the catastrophe of the GFC mark 1. They are the ones who have made tremendous, startling, amazing profits over these few decades, whilst industries which actually make real stuff have bled dry....

And when finance got in trouble, who bailed them out?? We.

And once they got bailed out, what did they do?? Pay themselves even bigger bonuses.

The problem is not, and never has been, the desire for education..... :anjali:
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:52 pm

ans still today ... effort is asked to the bank to sit on half the Greek debt, but it's "only" what they gave to the share holders for half of the year. But they ask the Greek population to effort for some 10 years.
F.k the banks and the finance ! (wether French, American or from south pôle)

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:08 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
No, the debt crises was caused by Wall Street, not by Europe.




According to multiple sources the Greek debt crisis was directly caused by their socialistic policies.

I already posted links to substantiate this in earlier threads.

Or just watch the nightly news.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 94882.html:

"U.S. creditors own just 5% of direct exposure to Greek debt. But they are also indirectly exposed to at least 43% of such debt through CDSs, which total upwards of €25 billion. This equals about half of the European Central Bank's direct Greek exposure of €52 billion."

Credit Default Swaps were invented by Wall Street financial wizards. The reason we are exposed to the Greek debt crisis is because of derivatives we created in order to invest in debt. So please, don't give me a bunch of nonsense about how Greek Socialisms is destroying the American economy. The only thing destroying the American economy is the progressive deregulation of financial markets and the export of our manufacturing base, started by the GOP and continued by the Dems with NAFTA and the WTO agreements.

In short, what is destroying the world economy is nothing other than neo-liberal policies.

N
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:09 pm

tobes wrote:
catmoon wrote:Who is responsible? We are. We demand education for free, we demand unemployment insurance, we demand the most expensive medical treatments, we demand high wages, we demand military supremacy, and as a direct result governments go into debt to meet those demands.


Totally disagree. The responsibility lies with the finance sector and the finance sector alone. They pushed for radical deregulations in the 70's & 80's. They resisted every attempt to re-regulate - and still resist, despite the catastrophe of the GFC mark 1. They are the ones who have made tremendous, startling, amazing profits over these few decades, whilst industries which actually make real stuff have bled dry....



Here, here -- I completely agree with you.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:28 pm

catmoon wrote:
Now outside of Greece, Italy and Spain, governments are not completely stupid. Aware of the fact that high debt is an unstable situation, they limit debt to avoid the above nightmare scenario. But they still want to be able to buy votes, so they skate as close to the edge of disaster as they think they can get away with. This time, it isn't working, because of a new factor.


The debt situation of each of these three countries is completley different and independent.

The Spanis debt crisis was caused by a building bubble that collpased -- basically, very similar to the US.

The Greek debt Crisis was caused by running large deficits, which caused their bonds to give yeilds as high as %15 (meaning they are very risky).

The Italian debt crisis is being caused by rising yeilds on italian bonds, which means that borrowing costs for the Italian goverment is rising too high to make it easy for them to borrow. Typically, when bond yields rise above %7 they become riskier. This is not happening because the Italians want this to happen, it is happening because of poorly regulated financial markets putting pressure on the price of Italian debt.

US exposure to all of this debt comes in the form of CDS -- invented by Wall Street.

It is time for the Euro to go.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:00 pm

tobes wrote:
catmoon wrote:Who is responsible? We are. We demand education for free, we demand unemployment insurance, we demand the most expensive medical treatments, we demand high wages, we demand military supremacy, and as a direct result governments go into debt to meet those demands.


Totally disagree. The responsibility lies with the finance sector and the finance sector alone. They pushed for radical deregulations in the 70's & 80's. They resisted every attempt to re-regulate - and still resist, despite the catastrophe of the GFC mark 1. They are the ones who have made tremendous, startling, amazing profits over these few decades, whilst industries which actually make real stuff have bled dry....

And when finance got in trouble, who bailed them out?? We.

And once they got bailed out, what did they do?? Pay themselves even bigger bonuses.

The problem is not, and never has been, the desire for education..... :anjali:


Interesting and unexpected response. But in a way it just a demonstration of what I was saying. Part of the problem is that everyone considers the government program that benefits them to be the absolutely critical one that cannot be touched.

I can concede that the finance sector has dented entire national economies, not once, but several times over the past twenty or thirty years. I would agree they are insufficiently regulated. But I don't see the problem as primary. The people are just as greedy, if not more so, than the corporations, they are unwilling to accept any reduction in government benefits and services, and constantly demand more. This makes massive debt inevitable.

The tragedy of the commons comes into play here. The problem of greed cannot be solved if even a single person remains greedy, for that one single greedy person will suck up all the wealth for himself, and can only be stopped by people at least as greedy as he is. in an environment as saturated in greed as the one we live in, (mind you no individual thinks of himself as greedy at all), the abandonment of attachment to wealth is somewhat similar to an explosive decompression at 30,000 feet.

It's the worst possible environment for Buddhists trying to practice nonattachment.
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