Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
That's 7th Century stuff; a lot of water under the bridge there. I'm saying Pali Suttas are sutra stuff, and I can't find dualism in Buddha's sermons. The opposite.


The very fact that formless realms beings are immaterial proves substance dualism in sutrayāna.
I remember you saying in another thread that consciousness is composed of the mahabhuta of air, from which yana does this teaching come from, and if it is true (across all yana) then does this then not mean that even formless realm beings have a (subtle) physical basis (I was going to say body, but then reminded myself of name and form)?
:namaste:



This is the point of view of Dzogchen, not sutra.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:This is the point of view of Dzogchen, not sutra.
So there are no formless realms in Dzogchen?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:58 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:This is the point of view of Dzogchen, not sutra.
So there are no formless realms in Dzogchen?


The class exists, but here "formless" means "very little form", similar with Theravada Abhidhamma understanding of formless realms. It is kind if like saying that you are broke, even though you can afford a cup of coffee.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:34 pm

padma norbu wrote:Sadly, I have found Kevin is out there in full force, trying to disseminate his views:

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/

http://www.youtube.com/user/KevinSolway

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?thr ... njk&page=2

I offer this for the simple reason that it seems pointless to debate with him once you realize that would entail more than a simple admission of error on a message board.

Some already knew that. :smile:
The way he chooses to act outside our boundaries is up to him and I have nothing to do with it. Here he must abide by the ToS, as everybody else.
He surely is convinced about his own theories, no doubt about that. That's his problem.
If only he spent as much time practicing and studying Dharma... and I don't mean his quite peculiar version of what Dharma is. :lol:
In the end what he does with his life is his own problem. My only concern are his actions in this board and nothing else.
If he follows the ToS, he is as welcome as any other, not mattering his personal views, provided that he doesn't push them upon others.

Best wishes and thank you for your concern.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:49 pm

Personally, I'm really quite enamoured of the "Humans as Animals" part of this theory of Kevin's......I mean, really, Jimi Hendrix had it right all along.....


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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:55 pm

:lol:
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:51 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Sadly, I have found Kevin is out there in full force, trying to disseminate his views:

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/

http://www.youtube.com/user/KevinSolway

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?thr ... njk&page=2

I offer this for the simple reason that it seems pointless to debate with him once you realize that would entail more than a simple admission of error on a message board.

Some already knew that. :smile:
The way he chooses to act outside our boundaries is up to him and I have nothing to do with it. Here he must abide by the ToS, as everybody else.
He surely is convinced about his own theories, no doubt about that. That's his problem.
If only he spent as much time practicing and studying Dharma... and I don't mean his quite peculiar version of what Dharma is. :lol:
In the end what he does with his life is his own problem. My only concern are his actions in this board and nothing else.
If he follows the ToS, he is as welcome as any other, not mattering his personal views, provided that he doesn't push them upon others.

Best wishes and thank you for your concern.


Yowza, from: http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/preview.html

Quote:

"A. Books

1. Philosophic works

a. Poison for the Heart is probably the greatest book ever written. I wanted to produce the clearest exposition of wisdom, and I think I succeeded."

This is a book he wrote in 1990 from notes he made in his 20s. His YouTube channel says his age is 50, so in 1990 he would have been 29. Can you imagine writing a book at age 29 which you are still content to describe in this manner at age 50? It doesn't seem like his thinking has changed much in 20 years.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:56 pm

padma norbu wrote:Quote:

"A. Books

1. Philosophic works

a. Poison for the Heart is probably the greatest book ever written. I wanted to produce the clearest exposition of wisdom, and I think I succeeded"


Chapeaux-bas!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:07 pm

padma norbu wrote:Sadly, I have found Kevin is out there in full force, trying to disseminate his views:

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/

http://www.youtube.com/user/KevinSolway

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?thr ... njk&page=2

I offer this for the simple reason that it seems pointless to debate with him once you realize that would entail more than a simple admission of error on a message board.



LOL, he talks about Esangha.

Thats pretty funny.....
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Fruitzilla » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:27 pm

alwayson wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Sadly, I have found Kevin is out there in full force, trying to disseminate his views:

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/

http://www.youtube.com/user/KevinSolway

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?thr ... njk&page=2

I offer this for the simple reason that it seems pointless to debate with him once you realize that would entail more than a simple admission of error on a message board.



LOL, he talks about Esangha.

Thats pretty funny.....


Ahhh, e-sanga. The evidence that even the hells are impermanent... :tongue:
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:31 pm

Esangha was a digital Pure Land that died and became reborn as Dharma Wheel
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:40 pm

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:42 pm

The last part is good

"If you have some money to spare and would like to contribute to something of ultimate value, then please contact me. Any money will help.I would like to start a publishing company and television series."
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:57 pm

padma norbu wrote:http://www.theabsolute.net/


Pretty mysognistic, overall.

Oh well, just another day in samsara.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:http://www.theabsolute.net/


Pretty mysognistic, overall.

Oh well, just another day in samsara.


I noticed that... and then I noticed what he said about women on his about page bio... "nature was to be his only lover" and he came close a couple times with some girls he didn't find that interesting or attractive, but it wasn't meant to be... I don't mean to presume, but I don't think you have to read much between the lines to determine that he might be a 50 year old virgin... and that might have something to do with the misogynistic attitude.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:39 pm

Can someone dumb down Kevin Solway's philosophy into one sentence?

I mean does this guy have a point??
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby Josef » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:21 am

alwayson wrote:Can someone dumb down Kevin Solway's philosophy into one sentence?

I mean does this guy have a point??

His main point seems to be that he thinks he is awesome.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:28 am

alwayson wrote:Can someone dumb down Kevin Solway's philosophy into one sentence?

I mean does this guy have a point??


Well, it seems to me like he's another one of these "golden thread" types who wants to marvel at the wonders of nature and believe that the message nature has to offer comes out loud and clear through various traditions for one who has the ears to hear it, eyes to see it or is is wise enough to suss it out.

Open-mindedness and inclusiveness are great, but as the Dalai Lama always says, "it is not only important to note the similarities between traditions, but it is equally important to note the differences." Unfortunately, he cherry picks what parts the Dalai Lama's speech he wants to hear (such as the HHDL's remark that Jesus *MAY* have been a bodhisattva, which is very important to Kevin Solway... but somehow Kevin is not convinced the historical Buddha was in fact a Buddha, though the Dalai Lama has spent his life teaching this... nor does Kevin believe in literal rebirth, even though this too is what the Dalai Lama teaches because it is what Buddha taught... etc.)

Other than that, I don't know, perhaps make a name for himself?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby conebeckham » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:33 am

Kevin, where did you go?

I was enjoying the exchange between Namdrol and you for what it was worth. Stripping away all the personal stuff, and the He-Man-Woman-Hater's-Club stuff from your website, you DID ask some interesting questions which don't have easy answers. You've got to admit, though, that Animals-as-Humans interpretation was a stretch, dude. If Buddha meant that I could be reborn as, for example, a human being with the attributes of a Two-Toed Sloth, while still remaining in Human form, why didn't he just say so? You think he was being allegorical? And, if that was the case, what about the "external" Two-Toed Sloths that look, to my deluded perception, like Two-Toed Sloths, and not Humans? Perhaps, it's back to the drawing board?
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:41 am

padma norbu wrote: Unfortunately, he cherry picks what parts the Dalai Lama's speech he wants to hear (such as the HHDL's remark that Jesus *MAY* have been a bodhisattva, which is very important to Kevin Solway... but somehow Kevin is not convinced the historical Buddha was in fact a Buddha, though the Dalai Lama has spent his life teaching this... nor does Kevin believe in literal rebirth, even though this too is what the Dalai Lama teaches because it is what Buddha taught... etc.)?



Interesting point. :thumbsup:
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