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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:07 am 
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pensum wrote:
If you believe that the world and beings are deities, you stray into Mantra.
What is the use of meditation practice without knowing how to cut through these strayings!"

Padmasambhava
(my emphasis)

I understand what Guru p is saying. Also, I don't think it't that bad to stray into mantra, as Guru P himself encourages it, just like ChNN does at times.

Kevin

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:11 am 
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Oh it's time for reification, my freakin bad.

Kevin

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Last edited by Virgo on Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:19 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
pensum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N



If you believe that the world and beings are deities, you stray into Mantra.
What is the use of meditation practice without knowing how to cut through these strayings!"

Padmasambhava
(my emphasis)


This is appropriate for someone who has stabilized thier practice of Dzogchen. However, one cannot stray into Mantra if one has no concrete knowledge of Dzogchen, correct? I think ChNN's point is that it is far better to stray into mantra if you have a tendency to demonize your vajra brothers and sisters.

N


Until rigpa is fully stable, one is constantly straying. Hence the profound methods of tantra such as yidam practice, ngondro etc. Specifically yidam practice provides one with an excellent support that not only acts as an enhancement and/or reminding factor, but being a facsimile of the awakened state also ensures that one does not create further negative karma. Of course, any practice embraced by the view is even more effective and the ideal, but indeed it is hard to stray if one has never had a taste, hence the accumulation of merit and wisdom. It really is a remarkable collection of methods and teachings.


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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:03 am 
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Virgo wrote:
pensum wrote:
Until rigpa is fully stable, one is constantly straying.

So what?
If one strays, one strays. If one is practicing wholeheartedly, then one knows that one will stray, this is natural.
Kevin


My apologies Kevin for not being clear. I was merely commenting on why yidam practice, ngondro etc. are often taught and practiced even by and to those who have been introduced to dzogchen.


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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:43 am 
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pensum wrote:
Virgo wrote:
pensum wrote:
Until rigpa is fully stable, one is constantly straying.

So what?
If one strays, one strays. If one is practicing wholeheartedly, then one knows that one will stray, this is natural.
Kevin


My apologies Kevin for not being clear. I was merely commenting on why yidam practice, ngondro etc. are often taught and practiced even by and to those who have been introduced to dzogchen.

No problem. My apologies.

Kevin

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:29 am 
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Namdrol wrote:

Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N


I keep hearing people repeating that Tantra is just imagination but I am afraid that this isn't what is written in the Guhyagharbha Tantra. Imagination is just the means that brings people to the natural state of inseparable purity and equality which is the view of Mahayoga. Pure perception is the spontaneously occurring post-meditation. For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:41 am 
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The true "Yidam" isn't some mentally constructed deity image in the imagination. Though it certainly starts out that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:42 am 
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pensum wrote:
Until rigpa is fully stable, one is constantly straying. Hence the profound methods of tantra such as yidam practice, ngondro etc. Specifically yidam practice provides one with an excellent support that not only acts as an enhancement and/or reminding factor, but being a facsimile of the awakened state also ensures that one does not create further negative karma. Of course, any practice embraced by the view is even more effective and the ideal, but indeed it is hard to stray if one has never had a taste, hence the accumulation of merit and wisdom. It really is a remarkable collection of methods and teachings.


This is actually the point I been trying to make through this and other threads here but most people think I am just making advertisement for Ngondro. Even if I say that it is normal to get direct introduction before doing Ngondro in the Nyingma they insist that I say that "everyone have to make Ngondro before doing Dzogchen". My English is probably just not good enough.

I did a full Ngondro in a Kagyu context first and in that center they didn't want that you even looked at the outside of a book about Mahamudra before finishing Ngondro. For the record I like to say that this approach is poison for people like me.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:42 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
The true "Yidam" isn't some mentally constructed deity image in the imagination. Though it certainly starts out that way.


Exactly.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:53 pm 
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heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N


I keep hearing people repeating that Tantra is just imagination but I am afraid that this isn't what is written in the Guhyagharbha Tantra. Imagination is just the means that brings people to the natural state of inseparable purity and equality which is the view of Mahayoga. Pure perception is the spontaneously occurring post-meditation. For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus


Magnus, read what I said again: Tantric generation stage ...We are not talking about a result here. Just the means.

N

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:54 pm 
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heart wrote:
For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus



If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N


I keep hearing people repeating that Tantra is just imagination but I am afraid that this isn't what is written in the Guhyagharbha Tantra. Imagination is just the means that brings people to the natural state of inseparable purity and equality which is the view of Mahayoga. Pure perception is the spontaneously occurring post-meditation. For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus


Magnus, read what I said again: Tantric generation stage ...We are not talking about a result here. Just the means.

N


Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus



If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N


But discovering that knowledge doesn't mean that you are constantly in that knowledge, so for this reason also after recognizing the natural state creation and completion is very helpful.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:42 pm 
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heart wrote:

Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus


Hi Magnus:

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

This is partially why one finds criticisms of the two stages approach even in Mahāmudra upadeshas.

Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages.

You are so conditioned by Anuyoga, you have a hard time relating to mahāyoga in and of itself.

N

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:43 pm 
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heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
For this reason if you have recognized ripga Tantra is a really helpful as it hit the right spot.

/magnus



If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N


But discovering that knowledge doesn't mean that you are constantly in that knowledge, so for this reason also after recognizing the natural state creation and completion is very helpful.

/magnus


From a Dzogchen perspective, guru yoga is better.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:

Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus


Hi Magnus:

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

This is partially why one finds criticisms of the two stages approach even in Mahāmudra upadeshas.

Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages.

You are so conditioned by Anuyoga, you have a hard time relating to mahāyoga in and of itself.

N


Well that could well be, I can just say how I been taught to practice. I am currently reading the Guhyagarbha Tantra and, at least to me, it seem to support the understanding my Guru given me about these matters. Guhyagarbha Tantra is classified as a Mahayoga Tantra. The fact that it contains the view of Dzogchen seems to support what I say.

I can't say I been taught much Anuyoga.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

If you have discovered knowledge (rig pa) of the basis, you don't need creation stage and completion stage. That's the whole point of Dzogchen. Creation and completion stage are means of discovering that knowledge, but not the only means. Hence, Dzogchen and direct introduction.

N


But discovering that knowledge doesn't mean that you are constantly in that knowledge, so for this reason also after recognizing the natural state creation and completion is very helpful.

/magnus


From a Dzogchen perspective, guru yoga is better.


From my perspective guru yoga contains the two stages. Probably the best way to practice the two stages.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:07 pm 
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heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:

Yes, but the theory of the development stage is not that "if you imagine that everything is a mandala it will become a mandala" rather it is "everything is a mandala use your imagination to discover your natural state".

/magnus


Hi Magnus:

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

This is partially why one finds criticisms of the two stages approach even in Mahāmudra upadeshas.

Guhyagarbha contains the view of Dzogchen, this is why the thirteenth chapter of Guhyagarbha emphasizes that the mandala has always been naturally formed [ye nas lhun grub] . So it is a very different approach. It is not really the approach of the two stages.

You are so conditioned by Anuyoga, you have a hard time relating to mahāyoga in and of itself.

N


Well that could well be, I can just say how I been taught to practice. I am currently reading the Guhyagarbha Tantra and, at least to me, it seem to support the understanding my Guru given me about these matters. Guhyagarbha Tantra is classified as a Mahayoga Tantra. The fact that it contains the view of Dzogchen seems to support what I say.

I can't say I been taught much Anuyoga.

/magnus


It supports what you say solely from a Nyingma POV. But Nyingma is not the end all and be all of Vajrayāna. Sarma schools have a different POV, especially Sakya and Gelug. So you need to qualify your statements.

As to Anuyoga, what you practice is mostly anuyoga. Most termas are anuyoga.

You need to be able to differentiate what you have been taught from the approach of other schools. Your reading is top down. Since your teachers are all Dzogchen practitioners, it is natural that Dzogchen colors everything they teach.

Guhyagarbha is classified as ati of mahāyoga, actually.

N

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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:09 pm 
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heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
From a Dzogchen perspective, guru yoga is better.


From my perspective guru yoga contains the two stages. Probably the best way to practice the two stages.

/magnus


We differ on that point, probably because we practice different Guru Yogas.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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 Post subject: Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N


I don't' think it is humanly possible to envision Michele Bachmann as a Buddhist deity. :smile:

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