Ayahuasca and Buddhism

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

... fall prey to delusions

Unlike you, who "knows" what reality "really" is?

[padma norbu]

... fall prey to delusions

Unlike you, who "knows" what reality "really" is?

[Acchantika]

And then, they either do more drugs and ruin their brain eventually... or give up out of frustration and go back to being a "normal" person (but more frazzled and easily upset)... or go nuts... or realize that drugs actually just showed the power of mind to create false realities and then give them up and get involved with Buddhism or Hinduism (usually one or the other).

You forgot "...or they give up drugs and become involved with Buddhism or Hinduism because they profess ideas most similar to or identical with the sentiments that "we are all one, God is in everything, all paths lead to the same goal which is the eventual realization where we "wake up" to this reality" etc. without drugs".

[gregkavarnos]

You forgot "...or they give up drugs and become involved with Buddhism or Hinduism because they profess ideas most similar to or identical with the sentiments that "we are all one, God is in everything, all paths lead to the same goal which is the eventual realization where we "wake up" to this reality" etc. without drugs".

God???

[Acchantika]

You forgot "...or they give up drugs and become involved with Buddhism or Hinduism because they profess ideas most similar to or identical with the sentiments that "we are all one, God is in everything, all paths lead to the same goal which is the eventual realization where we "wake up" to this reality" etc. without drugs".

God???

No, I'm Acchantika.

"with Buddhism or Hinduism"

[deff]

well all perceived realities are false really, the relative truth is just what we're used to

we currently perceive the physical world through a lens of neurological chemicals - serotonin, dopamine, etc

what's neat about most common psychedelics is that they simply mimic serotonin and replace it temporarily, so the user gets a new chemical configuration to look at the same input data in novel ways. this is why they're particularly effective at solving personal and emotional problems as they allow the user to see their "normal" serotonin-based selves through a new lens allowing for more objective self evaluation. it's like seeing yourself through someone else's eyes, and can be very useful.

i wouldn't write off all drug users as idiots, nor would i write off drug insights as delusions. the idea that any drug results in fake and deluded realities i think is a misnomer, instead i think a better term/view would be non-ordinary states of consciousness. our normal waking consciousness, for unenlightened people, can be just as deluded - even moreso some might say. insights like "all is one" shouldn't be scoffed at, as really, all is clearly one interconnected system, otherwise the apparently separate parts wouldn't be able to interact with one another. i think psychedelic insights can be quite valuable for certain people, depending on where they are with their lives spiritually and emotionally. i don't think they represent a valid path in and of themselves by any means, but they can be good wake up calls for people. a lot of people after the psychedelic experience are drawn towards buddhism or other spiritual traditions to explain their new perspectives, and receive great benefit as a result.

i don't want to overtly advocate psychedelics, and i don't use them anymore, but i still think they have a beneficial use, and i think human society would benefit if more people chose this class of drug over alcohol and other intoxicants. obviously a level of personal responsibility and maturity is required, and they may not be for everyone. but i wouldn't be practicing buddhism had it not been for them, so i feel they've played their important role in my life and i'm grateful.

[padma norbu]

In light of what deff just said, I repeat:

"...or realize that drugs actually just showed the power of mind to create false realities and then give them up and get involved with Buddhism or Hinduism (usually one or the other)."

[padma norbu]

And then, they either do more drugs and ruin their brain eventually... or give up out of frustration and go back to being a "normal" person (but more frazzled and easily upset)... or go nuts... or realize that drugs actually just showed the power of mind to create false realities and then give them up and get involved with Buddhism or Hinduism (usually one or the other).

You forgot "...or they give up drugs and become involved with Buddhism or Hinduism because they profess ideas most similar to or identical with the sentiments that "we are all one, God is in everything, all paths lead to the same goal which is the eventual realization where we "wake up" to this reality" etc. without drugs".

I didn't forget this; in fact the sentence you deleted (in bold below) covers this:

Typically, the belief I have seen that comes out of this can be summed up as: we are all one, God is in everything, all paths lead to the same goal which is the eventual realization where we "wake up" to this reality. It comes with a faraway psychedelic gleam in the eye. I feel like the stupider people usually feel content with this, the smarter people realize there's something to doubt about it, such as: well, how do I get to that realization, fully? And then, they either do more drugs and ruin their brain eventually... or give up out of frustration and go back to being a "normal" person (but more frazzled and easily upset)... or go nuts... or realize that drugs actually just showed the power of mind to create false realities and then give them up and get involved with Buddhism or Hinduism (usually one or the other).

In other words, the first group is content to live by this idea. Whether or not they are on or off drugs, Buddhist, Hindu or New Ager is beside the point. The second group feels the idea is not enough because they realize it's just an idea and that they haven't fully realized that idea. So, they turn to more drugs to go "even further" and either end up wackjobs or giving up after putting their brain through the ringer.

[padma norbu]

Btw, I'm not inexperienced.

Daniel Pinchbeck is a great modern example of a guy who got all turned around on drugs and is trying to find his way back out. I went to the premiere of his 2012 movie and asked him questions after the show and I saw him at the premier of My Reincarnation. It's like people take drugs and think that they're automatically somehow ahead of the game as far as spiritual evolution goes. That might be the case, possibly, in the bardo after death since you have experience with scary realms, but I sort of doubt it. All the Buddhist teachers I know of who've discussed such substances say it's only good maybe to try a couple times as an example to really see how powerful the mind is and how it works to create delusion and that the visions are not authentic visions, but just exaggerated delusion.

However, as we discussed in the "hippy" thread, such substances were instrumental in pointing a great many of us in the direction of Buddhism and for that I am grateful, too. However, I may have found Buddhism, anyway, without them and perhaps saved myself some trouble. Who knows?

[padma norbu]

Just wanted to add some words from my teacher......

[Thug4lyfe]

And so many people who "doesn't come back".

Mescaline definetly was one of my conditions that eventually lead me to Buddhism by showing many many WRONG views, but I will never encouarge anyone else to take it for the sake of spiritual advancement. Because I see so many around on that crap falling deeper and deeper into delusion and laziness.

[padma norbu]

And so many people who "doesn't come back".

Mescaline definetly was one of my conditions that eventually lead me to Buddhism by showing many many WRONG views, but I will never encouarge anyone else to take it for the sake of spiritual advancement. Because I see so many around on that crap falling deeper and deeper into delusion and laziness.

For me, it was the opposite. I was basically describing myself to a certain extent earlier, although I shook it off. At first, though, LSD was like a magic transformative affect on me: one day, miserable punk/metal kid, next day optimistic about everything and understanding of people. I wish I could remember more clearly my acid-induced delusions, but it was something on the order of the usual "all is god" stuff.

[Thug4lyfe]

And so many people who "doesn't come back".

Mescaline definetly was one of my conditions that eventually lead me to Buddhism by showing many many WRONG views, but I will never encouarge anyone else to take it for the sake of spiritual advancement. Because I see so many around on that crap falling deeper and deeper into delusion and laziness.

For me, it was the opposite. I was basically describing myself to a certain extent earlier, although I shook it off. At first, though, LSD was like a magic transformative affect on me: one day, miserable punk/metal kid, next day optimistic about everything and understanding of people. I wish I could remember more clearly my acid-induced delusions, but it was something on the order of the usual "all is god" stuff.

I was actually under very similar conditions! Although my trip was a pretty horrible trip. I did become a much more sociable and optimistic person after a very depressive period. I've also did the "god phase" cause I don't know about the alternative at the time. Although through my "happy phase" many very wrong ideas got into my mind. Those wrong ideas would have gotten me into bigger trouble. Those ideas actually reinforced all the wrong ideas within the music and community, although I am just doing it in a much more happier fashion. It's discovering the Dharma that finally dettached from that crowd. So yeah, a big hater against drugs here!

[Tron010101]

Having been an active Ayahuasca Practitioner involved in at least 14 serious ceremonies AND an meditation practitioner....i will give you all a heads up.

If you have a choice.....and you do......Do not take Ayahuasca...... or anything external.

Everything you need you all ready have. Do not go to external sources.

For those who have been down the shamatic path (I have respectfully bowed away from Ayahuasca), some of the following points will ring hard, especially in these times.

1. The Ayahuasca has been turned into a business, a disrespect to the "Madrecita/Ayahuasca" of epic proportions. As a result, the Shamans/Chefs who are preparing the brew are increasingly tainted, dirty handed, ill intended, and they are sending poison. Not all, but its becoming an epidemic.

2. Ayahuasca is real. There are some things that happen in ceremonies that are too risky for the mind. Seriously.

3. Dark Shamans are rampant, very real and can easily manipulate from a distance. Hard to believe, strange, but true. They are taking advantage of tourists. The spiritual and psychological consequences of the misuse of ayahuasca could be catastrophic.

4. There are certain boundaries and laws that are in place in our reality to permit Humans to progress and make their own choices for themselves and their race. Ayahuasca will permit you to cross these boundaries... at your risk. If you cross the boundaries and you are under the wrong supervision.....GOOD LUCK. Hungry Ghosts are REAL.

I would suggest all practicing buddhist to focus on the three jewels, stay away from all forms of dangerous intoxicants and practice compassion every day. LOVE IS THE ONLY WAY.

I would like to say, the plant is a blessing, but should be left alone and respected.

[asunthatneversets]

Having been an active Ayahuasca Practitioner involved in at least 14 serious ceremonies AND an meditation practitioner....i will give you all a heads up.

If you have a choice.....and you do......Do not take Ayahuasca...... or anything external.

Everything you need you all ready have. Do not go to external sources.

For those who have been down the shamatic path (I have respectfully bowed away from Ayahuasca), some of the following points will ring hard, especially in these times.

1. The Ayahuasca has been turned into a business, a disrespect to the "Madrecita/Ayahuasca" of epic proportions. As a result, the Shamans/Chefs who are preparing the brew are increasingly tainted, dirty handed, ill intended, and they are sending poison. Not all, but its becoming an epidemic.

2. Ayahuasca is real. There are some things that happen in ceremonies that are too risky for the mind. Seriously.

3. Dark Shamans are rampant, very real and can easily manipulate from a distance. Hard to believe, strange, but true. They are taking advantage of tourists. The spiritual and psychological consequences of the misuse of ayahuasca could be catastrophic.

4. There are certain boundaries and laws that are in place in our reality to permit Humans to progress and make their own choices for themselves and their race. Ayahuasca will permit you to cross these boundaries... at your risk. If you cross the boundaries and you are under the wrong supervision.....GOOD LUCK. Hungry Ghosts are REAL.

I would suggest all practicing buddhist to focus on the three jewels, stay away from all forms of dangerous intoxicants and practice compassion every day. LOVE IS THE ONLY WAY.

I would like to say, the plant is a blessing, but should be left alone and respected.

Unfortunate to hear that such abuse goes on, I guess anything is susceptible to degradation of this nature though. Ayahuasca has always intrigued me, I've never done it myself but a friend of mine doing DMT is actually what ended up sparking my initial interest in the dharma. What are some of the things that happen in ceremonies which are too risky for the mind? I've never heard of dark shamans, I mean I've heard of black practices and I know that any teaching can be made to serve the negative but I'd never heard of dark shamans specifically who deal with ayahuasca and such... interesting stuff.

Some say that the ayahuasca opens doors that would otherwise be inaccessible, and can leave these doors open. Sensors left triggered which are usually dormant and the ability to continually detect perceptive wavelengths previously unavailable (in every day life). Have you experienced anything like this? 14 ceremonies is a lot, curious to know if you've had any intuitive/extra-sensory abilities left activated. Or has it boosted the intensity of your meditative practices/experiences? I find this stuff interesting.

[tomamundsen]

Just wanted to add some words from my teacher......

I agree with her about how it's conceptual and thus a wrong path. But she jumps to a rather bold conclusion without much more arguments. Sure, psychedelics are just worldly, conceptual experiences, but so is watching baseball or going kayaking. Everything people do that isn't dharma practice doesn't do them a lick of good.

Historically, I have used quite a bit of drugs in my day. All psychedelics. I have even done them recently. I brewed and drank my own ayahuasca just one month ago. I do think that these drugs can lead to meaningful insights, but it is not the end game. Psychedelics are all within the mind. Dharma goes beyond mind. As my first Zen teacher that got me into this whole business said "Drugs will get you high, but [Buddhism] will get you higher."

[tomamundsen]

Just wanted to add some words from my teacher......

I agree with her about how it's conceptual and thus a wrong path. But she jumps to a rather bold conclusion without many arguments. Sure, psychedelics are just worldly, conceptual experiences, but so is watching baseball or going kayaking. Everything people do that isn't dharma practice doesn't do them a lick of good.

Historically, I have used quite a bit of drugs in my day. All psychedelics. I have even done them recently. I brewed and drank my own peyote just one month ago and smoked DMT (the psychedelic in Ayahuasca) about a year ago. I do think that these drugs can lead to meaningful insights, but it is not the end game. Psychedelics are all within the mind. Dharma goes beyond mind. As my first Zen teacher that got me into this whole business said "Drugs will get you high, but [Buddhism] will get you higher."

[nobodytobe123]

Entheogens can lead to conceptual experiences, but they can and often do go far beyond that.

I was a staunch materialist and never would have dedicated my life to meditation were it not for my ayahuasca experiences.

But less than 10% of people who drink ayahuasca are going to have anything near like what I had from it (based on my own surveys and readings). It has to do with your deepest aspirations and karma ("set") as well as setting and dose. Even as a materialist, I was searching for the truth about the end of suffering. I knew that I was here not to simply enjoy myself. I felt I was here to help others, but wasn't sure of the best way.

Ayahuasca took me through death, beyond time, space, and conceptual reality. I saw everything in the universe all at once, and knew everything and nothing all at once. I knew what it means to be whole, complete, without any need for anything, eternally. To have compassion as my only motivation.

Due to my materialist tendencies, I did chalk that up to merely a drug experience a few days later. Due to that, I had to repeat the experiment numerous times before I let go of my silly pre-conceived notions about reality.

I did eventually get the message and hang up the phone, as Watts advises. Not everyone does that, and it's sad to see.

For me, ayahuasca was the most gracious gift from heaven, but ultimately I had to choose to change my life path on my own, with the gnosis of ayahuasca as one important factor to consider.

The question of whether someone should try ayahuasca or iboga (the two big hitters) is not one that I or anyone else can answer. Not everyone needs such an atomic bomb type of experience to motivate them to let go of the fetters. And not everyone who does feel the need for such an experience will get it, regardless of their drug usage.

And yes, many ayahuasca shamans are engaged in black magic and such, though there are also many good ones. A shaman was not necessary in my case.

[murphythecat]

Greckavarnos: seriously, you have been really hard to read all this thread. All you said was mere opinions, view point, judgments, generalization, assumptions based on your ego centered experience.

Without psychadelic experiences, I would have not start my buddhist practise.

Psychadelic, tryptamine more specifically, are mind expending psychadelic. They do not induce illusion, contrary, they show you a part of the reality, a part of your mind. You see all the multidimensional realities, devas, ghost, gods, that the Buddha was talking about. You see those entities, worlds. Sure they are experiences and impermanent, but they have been, for me, life saving. and showed me the path, the light in me.

Do you know how many heroin addict cure them selve with ONE Iboga trip. Psychadelics can be life saving. Who are you to judge all those substance, when it has been proven how helpful it has been to so many users.

I know that you not had a ego death with a psychadelic. I am a buddhist, I am not a drug addict, but DMT and Shrooms definitely showed me part of my ego, of my mind, that I needed to see in order to become a buddhist. My experience is lived by all the users I know. Most of the forum like dmtnexus, shroomery, they all have buddha avatars and what not.

Seriously, your condescendant attitude is really weird for a practisionner. Sure, any experience is bad and impermanent and cause suffering. But I doubt that you are a buddha, I doubt that every action you do in life is toward enlightment. You are not a buddha, dont repeat what the buddha says, over and over, without taking into accounts how many different paths there is to engliment.

Psychadelic user are for the most part, lovely persons that have realize how much beauty there is in this world, how important love is, ect. PPsychadelic showed me love, respect for others, ect. I do not know any user of dmt or shrooms or ayu that are violent persons.
Even though I do not enlighten in this life, I will have learned morality, love, respect, not killing, ect all because of psychadelics.

Psychadelics, just like the poster before me, showed me my path in life. to be compassionate, to help other, all loving kindness. I hold those substance with utter respect, so is everyone who takes them that I know of.

[Johnny Dangerous]

You just did a great job of showing exactly how and why psychedelics cloud the mind.

I don't doubt some kind of realization came come on substances..the problem is that 99.9% of people doing them are not capable of handling or knowing how to reach such insights - that much is clear even from just a shallow inolvement in druge cultures.