the great vegetarian debate

[Pema Rigdzin]

Git,

You've definitely twisted the purpose .

Most 'umble apologies that was not my intention ..

I should have made the 'if' I started off with much larger to be clear that 'if' my understanding of purpose was wrong then the rest of what I had to say should be regarded as automaticaly irrelevant.

Git,

Your humility is apparent and appreciated, brother.

[Virgo]

An aside about the thrown out meat from supermarkets: generally, the meat will be thrown out with other trash so it will not be available. Also, if you ask, I doubt they will give it to you for fear of you getting sick (and the possibility of subsequent lawsuits). Generally meat will be discounted a day or two before it's expiration date has come, and then, if not bought with the discounted "Clearance" tick on it, thrown out. Hopefully, it won't get mixed in with fresh meat and ground up and sold as the next days chopped hamburger meat.

Kevin

[KeithBC]

It's not really denial that's happening, though it must surely appear to be so. What is really happening here is: I am pushing the logic of the subject as far and hard as I can to see if it breaks.

I think that you need to push the logic a little harder. If you do you will see that the necessary conditions for an animal to be slaughtered for food are (1) a person willing to do the slaughtering, and (2) one or more customers wishing to eat the meat. If you take away either of those conditions, the animal lives. Without the butcher, the customer has no meat to buy, and without the customer, the butcher has no source of income and no reason to kill the animal. Both are therefore contributing causes. The logic is sound.

Om mani padme hum
Keith

[kirtu]

Hi.
Is it possible to practice vajrayana without partaking in meat offerings?

Hi!

Technically yes but in actuallity it is really not possible to not encounter meat offerings at some point if one takes Highest Yoga Tantra empowerments (certainly in Sakya and often in Nyingma). Usually one can get around this by touching the meat to the lips (any lama will probably be fine with this). As noted in the discussion people are in different places and some people are not ready to incorporate this practice.

However many lower tantra practices have veg tsok from the beginning.

And as noted HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje has urged people to move to veg tsok (unless, as he mentioned in one teaching, Mahakala actually shows up in person).

Kirt

[Blue Garuda]

Hi.
Is it possible to practice vajrayana without partaking in meat offerings?

Hi!

Technically yes but in actuallity it is really not possible to not encounter meat offerings at some point if one takes Highest Yoga Tantra empowerments (certainly in Sakya and often in Nyingma). Usually one can get around this by touching the meat to the lips (any lama will probably be fine with this). As noted in the discussion people are in different places and some people are not ready to incorporate this practice.

However many lower tantra practices have veg tsok from the beginning.

And as noted HH Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje has urged people to move to veg tsok (unless, as he mentioned in one teaching, Mahakala actually shows up in person).

Kirt

There is so much in HYT which is imputed or representational that it may acceptable to use a meat substitute or, as stated, perform an action representative of eating it. I will mention, as an example, the role of the 5 meats and 5 nectars and inner offering substance - this will explain what I mean to HYT practitioners without revealing details of practice to others.

[kirtu]

There is so much in HYT which is imputed or representational that it may acceptable to use a meat substitute or, as stated, perform an action representative of eating it. I will mention, as an example, the role of the 5 meats and 5 nectars and inner offering substance - this will explain what I mean to HYT practitioners without revealing details of practice to others.

That's true but I was talking about what lamas actually do in tsok. Sakya lamas are very traditional and are not interested in meat substitutes. Nyingma lamas in my experience are more open on the question but I have yet to see meat substitutes in tsok (unless it's a practice that requires a veg tsok).

Kirt

[Blue Garuda]

There is so much in HYT which is imputed or representational that it may acceptable to use a meat substitute or, as stated, perform an action representative of eating it. I will mention, as an example, the role of the 5 meats and 5 nectars and inner offering substance - this will explain what I mean to HYT practitioners without revealing details of practice to others.

That's true but I was talking about what lamas actually do in tsok. Sakya lamas are very traditional and are not interested in meat substitutes. Nyingma lamas in my experience are more open on the question but I have yet to see meat substitutes in tsok (unless it's a practice that requires a veg tsok).

Kirt

I think in the end one has to be guided by the root guru. I would hope that the requirements are explained beofre someone takesn an empowerment and Tantric vows etc. but I suspect some are rather shocked to find alcohol and meat being a part of a ritual, especially if the centre they attend is vegetarian in all other respects.

I know some teachers who are failry relaxed (and for example don't expect a recovering alcoholic to take alcohol or a vegetarian to take the meat - albeit in tiny quantities). Others may expect full participation. Like you, I have never seen substitution, only a variation in expectation.

[Ngawang Drolma]

As Yeshe said there are meat substitutes which is perfectly acceptable for tsoks. And the ones I've attended, juice is offered along with wine.

Please remember that it is the representation and your state of mind which is important.

Kind wishes,
Laura

[Luke]

It's not really denial that's happening, though it must surely appear to be so. What is really happening here is: I am pushing the logic of the subject as far and hard as I can to see if it breaks.

Of course, it should be remembered that if a person wants to take the Bodhisattva Vow, this involves helping other sentient beings as much as possible and not simply trying to sneek in as much non-virtue as possible on the side.

A person aspiring to be a bodhisattva must be kind to all beings and regard them as more important than himself/herself. If one regards other sentient beings as more important than oneself and can't bear the thought of their suffering, then how could one slaughter and eat them?

One aspect of the true nature of one's mind is intense love for all beings. Killing animals comes from the poisons of ignorance, hatred, and attachment. We must purify ourselves of these negative emotions as much as possible, so that we have a chance to experience the true nature of our minds.

Mahayana is always about maximum kindness, not minimum kindness.

[Clueless Git]

Excellent post Luke

I don't like to think hatred is a cause though.

I don't remember ever had hatred towards animals or owt else in particular (mebbe with the exception of not really liking myself) when I was a meat eater.

I do remember having to harden myself to the plight of 'food' animals tho'. That being due to the incorrect belief that without meat in my diet I would become weak and ill. An incorrect belief, an ignorance, that manifested itself as fear.

[Clueless Git]

(2) one or more customers wishing to eat the meat.

'Lo Keith

Bit of pedantism for you here ...

Would 'willing' be a better word?

I'm thinking there that just 'willingly' eating a plate of meat as opposed to 'wishfully' eating a plate of meat makes no difference to the death toll required to produce a plate of meat at all.

[mudra]

as a vegetarian of some 39 years (ok ok ovolacto), i have not gone into any kind of argument/debate re vegetarianism for the last 30 years. I just do it.

But it's good news about Mongolia. My two months in '95 there were probably the hardest in my life as a vegetarian. In general the sight and smell of meat doesn't disturb me, my lamas eat meat and it doesn't bother me. But the all pervasive smell of mutton in Mongolia got to me a bit in the end - not so much out on the steppes but when I transited Ulan Bataar and stayed a couple of nights in a hotel, ostensibly to relax, clean up etc before leaving: the smell of mutton was in the carpets, the curtains everything.

The early morning of my departure I was second in line at the airport immigration desk. Just as the first passenger got his passport stamped a young boy, obviously a runner, delivered a package smelling of, yes you got it, mutton. I prayed and prayed for him to wait but to no avail. The officer opened the package straight away, picked up a few grisly bits and sucked on them with deep satisfaction before chewing and swallowing. Then with a cursory wipe on his uniform he grabbed the stamp and gave my passport a vigorous thump. With my highly developed sense powers I saw the microdroplets of mutton gravy splattered ever so finely on the page and knew it would be months before the smell disappeared. (OK so I lied, they were globules of mutton fat that were visible to my boggling eyes and it smelt bl...y awful).


Sorry - I only tell this story to illustrate that not all vegetarians have compassion. It took me about 2 hours before I had any remote sense of forgiveness....

[catmoon]

Hmm. Maybe you could have seized the opportunity for a meditation on impermanence? Would that have got you through it? I mean, in a sense you have were carrying a bit of portable corpse with you to contemplate.

[Indrajala]

as a vegetarian of some 39 years (ok ok ovolacto), i have not gone into any kind of argument/debate re vegetarianism for the last 30 years. I just do it.

But it's good news about Mongolia. My two months in '95 there were probably the hardest in my life as a vegetarian. In general the sight and smell of meat doesn't disturb me, my lamas eat meat and it doesn't bother me. But the all pervasive smell of mutton in Mongolia got to me a bit in the end - not so much out on the steppes but when I transited Ulan Bataar and stayed a couple of nights in a hotel, ostensibly to relax, clean up etc before leaving: the smell of mutton was in the carpets, the curtains everything.

The early morning of my departure I was second in line at the airport immigration desk. Just as the first passenger got his passport stamped a young boy, obviously a runner, delivered a package smelling of, yes you got it, mutton. I prayed and prayed for him to wait but to no avail. The officer opened the package straight away, picked up a few grisly bits and sucked on them with deep satisfaction before chewing and swallowing. Then with a cursory wipe on his uniform he grabbed the stamp and gave my passport a vigorous thump. With my highly developed sense powers I saw the microdroplets of mutton gravy splattered ever so finely on the page and knew it would be months before the smell disappeared. (OK so I lied, they were globules of mutton fat that were visible to my boggling eyes and it smelt bl...y awful).


Sorry - I only tell this story to illustrate that not all vegetarians have compassion. It took me about 2 hours before I had any remote sense of forgiveness....

When I was in Taiwan I came back from the bookstore to the hostel with a dharma book in hand.

One fellow asked to see it and of course I handed it over.

He inspected it and handed it back to me.

"Yeah, I went for dinner with a friend..."

...and as I looked at the back of book a visible smear of grease was present.

I delicately attempted to clean it off with tissues and soap, but that damn smell remained for awhile.

When you don't eat meat, you really smell it. It permeates through things.

No wonder it says in the Brahma Net Sutra that if you eat meat animals will run away from you!

[purplelotus10]

Isn't there a real famine in Mongolia at the moment?

There was an item about it on the BBC news - real hardship due to drought (I think).

P10

[msmedusa]

I heard a bizzare conversation on my car radio yesterday which I thought I would share .. for entertainment reasons if nothing else!

An interviewer was chatting with fellow DJ about her lifestyle off air. She proudly announced that she was a vegetarian. He asked her if she ate fish and she replied that yes indeed she did and some kinds of meat, he was obviously confused and asked her to explain.

She said she was only a vegetarian when it came to certain animals, and that she had a strict policy only to eat the flesh of animals she would be happy to kill with her own hands should the need arise.

Apparently...she didnt eat rabbit or duck because she found them 'cute' and would not be able to bring herself to kill them. She didnt eat chicken because although she could kill a chicken in theory she would find it too distressing and messy to pluck one.

But she would willingly gorge on beef or pork because she felt that if push came to shove she could kill a cow or a pig ...as long as they didnt look at her 'because they have sad eyes'.

I dont know if its a co-incidence but... I just passed a field of cows wearing sunglasses

Msmedusa

[Clueless Git]

Did she also declare herself to be celibate on the grounds that she only sleeps with people she likes?

[sukhamanveti]

I became a vegetarian in the mid-1990s until the summer of 2005 (long story), then I returned to vegetarianism after a few years. It is an ethical and religious commitment for me (now unbreakable), but I have experienced health benefits as a result.

[Luke]

Does anyone know a good site which has very simple vegetarian recipes with very ordinary ingredients online?

So many vegetarian recipes require so many exotic foods and spices which I can't get here in Eastern Europe. Here I can only get the basics: legumes, dairy products, bread, pasta, rice, potatoes and other vegetables, and fruits. I can't buy things like tempeh or quinoa or even soybeans here. And tofu is available only in stores which are pretty far away from me.

Lentils, red kidney beans, and baked beans are my staples here.

[sukhamanveti]

Does anyone know a good site which has very simple vegetarian recipes with very ordinary ingredients online?

So many vegetarian recipes require so many exotic foods and spices which I can't get here in Eastern Europe. Here I can only get the basics: legumes, dairy products, bread, pasta, rice, potatoes and other vegetables, and fruits. I can't buy things like tempeh or quinoa or even soybeans here. And tofu is available only in stores which are pretty far away from me.

Lentils, red kidney beans, and baked beans are my staples here.

Hi, Luke.

Here are two websites that have some easy recipes that you would be able to do:

http://allrecipes.com/Recipes/Everyday- ... /Main.aspx

http://vegweb.com/

Consider, for example, the Argentine Lentil Stew at the first link. It is made mostly from lentils, tomatoes, onions, carrots, apples, and peas. At the first link you also have Cucumber Sandwiches and Spaghetti Squash recipes, as well as Pumpkin Pie. At the second link you have Banana Cinnamon Toast and Super Duper Delish Garlic Rosemary Potatoes (Easy). Unfortunately, the easier stuff is hidden amongst the difficult. You may have to hunt a bit or try entering "easy" in the search engines. In a few instances it looks like all you would need to do is substitute milk for soy milk, as in the case of Very Simple Blueberry Muffins or the Easy South Western Tomato Soup at the second link, or margarine for vegan margerine (see Lentil Dahl at the second link).

I asked a friend (also a vegetarian) for suggestions as well and he replied, "Ask him what kind of spice cabinet he can keep."