Triyik Yeshe Lama.

[padma norbu]

I'm obviously not Namdrol, and I'm interested to hear what he has to say on this point, but I've heard it said that if one hasn't created a proper basis for the practice then they may grow skeptical of this very radical teaching or they may lose interest in practicing it. Both would be obstacles.

I could see skepticism followed by lack of interest happening for sure.

A possibly related comment about this kind of thing - I do regret that I read so much information about rigpa and dzogchen practice in general before having proper instruction. It is very, very easy to construct a fake rigpa to waste your time with. I think I did this for a few years at least. Being your own impediment is a pretty sad state of affairs...

How would you ever know if you got past this point? As far as I can tell, if you say all the right things, it is really impossible for anyone else to know whether or not you have experienced rigpa. And you might very well be saying all the right things based on the experience of a fake rigpa construction. Similarly, if you created one fake rigpa, you could always destroy it and create a new, subtler fake rigpa and so on.

(just pontificating rather pointlessly)

Seeing the movie "My Reincarnation" has really changed my perspective on a lot of things. I'm not entirely sure the change was for the better. Still thinking about it.

[Paul]

How would you ever know if you got past this point? As far as I can tell, if you say all the right things, it is really impossible for anyone else to know whether or not you have experienced rigpa. And you might very well be saying all the right things based on the experience of a fake rigpa construction. Similarly, if you created one fake rigpa, you could always destroy it and create a subtler fake rigpa and so on.

This is a possible problem I think, but working with a teacher (and experienced students) this point can definitely be passed. After all, there are many, many methods for removing doubt and clarifying exactly what rigpa is.

[padma norbu]

This is a possible problem, but if you work with a teacher (and experienced students) you get past it. There are many, many methods for removing doubt and clarifying exactly what rigpa is.

Yeah... no comment.

Have you seen "My Reincarnation?" At one point, Namkhai Norbu says that when he dies everybody will be arguing about things just like the Buddha with his followers splitting into multiple schools. There were a few points that struck me in that movie. Perhaps I will start a thread about it.

[Sönam]

A possibly related comment about this kind of thing - I do regret that I read so much information about rigpa and dzogchen practice in general before having proper instruction. It is very, very easy to construct a fake rigpa to waste your time with. I think I did this for a few years at least. Being your own impediment is a pretty sad state of affairs...

Well, it is not by chance that the second statement of Garab Dorjé is to elliminate doubt ... it means it's doubtful. It's also the reason why a master is ... useful

Sönam

[Pero]

Have you seen "My Reincarnation?" At one point, Namkhai Norbu says that when he dies everybody will be arguing about things just like the Buddha with his followers splitting into multiple schools. There were a few points that struck me in that movie. Perhaps I will start a thread about it.

Yes I'm worried that that's what'll happen. Wouldn't be too surprising really, unless everyone or at least most start following Yeshi Namkhai or something, which wouldn't be too surprising either I guess. Can't wait till they release the DVD.

[Sönam]

This is a possible problem, but if you work with a teacher (and experienced students) you get past it. There are many, many methods for removing doubt and clarifying exactly what rigpa is.

Yeah... no comment.

Have you seen "My Reincarnation?" At one point, Namkhai Norbu says that when he dies everybody will be arguing about things just like the Buddha with his followers splitting into multiple schools. There were a few points that struck me in that movie. Perhaps I will start a thread about it.

People are already strongly arguing ... undercover. And a main part of his students, also they've heard repeatidely that the only necessary (central) practice is Guru Yoga with white A, and that all others practices, also they can be useful, are not part of Dzogchen, are pretending otherwise. Some of them (that have now swinged over a Bön teacher) are strongly pretending that many ngondro, retreat, visualisation and so on are part of Dzogchen and therefore necessary.

Sönam

[heart]

Some of them (that have now swinged over a Bön teacher) are strongly pretending that many ngondro, retreat, visualisation and so on are part of Dzogchen and therefore necessary.

Sönam

Well, not only your "Bön teacher" is saying that. All the great Dzogchen masters such as Dilgo Khyentse, Trulshik Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Thinley Norbu, Chatral Rinpoche, Tulku Urgyen and so on all say the same. You can of course chose to ignore that if you want.

Isn't there is Ngondro in SantiMaha Sangha also?

/magnus

[padma norbu]

A possibly related comment about this kind of thing - I do regret that I read so much information about rigpa and dzogchen practice in general before having proper instruction. It is very, very easy to construct a fake rigpa to waste your time with. I think I did this for a few years at least. Being your own impediment is a pretty sad state of affairs...

Well, it is not by chance that the second statement of Garab Dorjé is to elliminate doubt ... it means it's doubtful. It's also the reason why a master is ... useful

Sönam

A few scenes from "My Reincarnation" that spring to mind here.

1. There is a guy telling Namkhai Norbu that he practices and practices but there is no change. Namkhai Norbu says practice is not about 'you practice and then one day you change,' but to get in that knowledge and work with that knowledge. The guy then says okay, but he is not getting that knowledge, but Namkhai Norbu is still explaining that you get in that knowledge and work with that knowledge. Seems to be a communication problem. Norbu is telling him to get in that knowledge and work with it and student is saying he doesn't know how. It seemed like that was the end of the exchange.

2. There is another guy telling Yeshe that he can't remain mindful or in rigpa at work and it is frustrating to him. Yeshe tells him to think of it as play, like a child, like nothing is that important. Maybe I projected my own feelings onto this guy, but it seemed he did not find it to be a very satisfying answer. It seemed like that was the end of the exchange.

3. many times throughout the movie Yeshe asked Namkhai Norbu about things and there was no response. Yeshe freely expressed his frustration about this in the film.

By the way, is Yeshe a Dzogchen master?

Afterwards, Yeshe did a little Q & A with the audience and one Tibetan woman in the audience said she had never heard of Dzogchen. Yeshe said that is not unusual because it is all in the mind, so there is very little that can be said about it. He didn't say it was secret teaching or anything like that, as far as I remember hearing. He just said it's not very well known because there is not much to say about it.

Overall, the film made me feel better about my own experience with teachers and other students simply because what I saw was a lot of other people flailing like me.

[deepbluehum]

I have often wondered about the themes of the Maha-suññata Sutta and the Upakkilesa Sutta whether these were the seeds of Trekcho and Thodgal respectively. The Buddha spoke about attending to internal and external emptiness, and also to the seeing lights and visions of beautiful forms. This thought occurs to me, Nothing new has been taught; nothing higher has been taught. We've been getting refresher courses on the original dispensation. It occurs to me, Four Jhanas, Four Stages of Arahat, Four Initiations, Four Visions. The Deity is directed thought of 1st Jhana; Bliss is rapture of 2nd Jhana; Wisdom is tranquility of 3rd Jhana and Word is the equanimity of the 4th Jhana, because the Buddha taught to combine Jhana to recognition of impermanence, emptiness and suffering and to relinquishment and nonattachment. After studying all of this for years and years, I can't tell you there is a precise fundamental difference in view, practice or result of any of the so-called "yanas." All differences lurk in the minds of practitioners who have such and such a view, practice and so-called different result. I look at suttas in the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata, which may be the earliest recordings of the Buddha, where the Buddha tells brahmins about no view, not embracing or rejecting, and about nonperception. No teaching in the Nine Yanas really exceeds this first one in terms of profundity. Just some things to keep in mind before you buy that no return ticket to Nepal.

You might be interested in this text: Small Boat, Great Mountain

It's about Dzogchen teachings that were given to some Theravada students by Tsoknyi Rinpoche. There's some very interesting parallels drawn.

As far as Pali suttas go, I find the Bahiya Sutta very, very close to trekcho instructions.

This is an enjoyable read. It reminds me of some of the games my teacher plays with me. Saying things like, you must practice everyday or you break your samaya. Then, I report how I practice every day these many hours and he says, Your practice is bondage, don't do like this. One time out of no where he said, "I love you." And later when I was leaving his teaching, I said, "I love you." He said, "I'm not a Tibeten girl." Then, everyone was laughing at me. Another time he said, if your visualization is clear, then you get the blessing. Later I would reported how clear my visualization was if I did such and such. He would say, clear or not clear is not important. He would tell me to report any experience I had. I reported I feel a lot of energy in my crown. He laughed at me and said "You are TRYING." I said "You want me to visualize without trying?" He just "Uh, yea." He even told me to do non-meditation as I visualize. I reported my visions of Thodgal and he said, They're illusions. "Did you perhaps as a child make a wish to become God?" I was floored with that one. Like Know without knowing. Do without doing. Basically, like get over yourself dude. Let it go. Then, I realized everything illusory comes about from trying, a view to a future becoming. Letting all that go, at the moment if seeing nothing, "appearances and possibilities manifest as the dharmakaya."

[Pero]

After studying all of this for years and years, I can't tell you there is a precise fundamental difference in view, practice or result of any of the so-called "yanas." All differences lurk in the minds of practitioners who have such and such a view, practice and so-called different result. I look at suttas in the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata, which may be the earliest recordings of the Buddha, where the Buddha tells brahmins about no view, not embracing or rejecting, and about nonperception. No teaching in the Nine Yanas really exceeds this first one in terms of profundity. Just some things to keep in mind before you buy that no return ticket to Nepal.

Uh yeah, things to keep in mind if people wanted to listen to you instead of actual teachers. You're basically discouraging people from following Vajrayana.

[deepbluehum]

After studying all of this for years and years, I can't tell you there is a precise fundamental difference in view, practice or result of any of the so-called "yanas." All differences lurk in the minds of practitioners who have such and such a view, practice and so-called different result. I look at suttas in the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata, which may be the earliest recordings of the Buddha, where the Buddha tells brahmins about no view, not embracing or rejecting, and about nonperception. No teaching in the Nine Yanas really exceeds this first one in terms of profundity. Just some things to keep in mind before you buy that no return ticket to Nepal.

Uh yeah, things to keep in mind if people wanted to listen to you instead of actual teachers. You're basically discouraging people from following Vajrayana.

Boohooism.

[Malcolm]

Isn't there is Ngondro in SantiMaha Sangha also?

/magnus

Yes, one to three weeks of each for the main four, refuge and so on. But this is only for SMS people. Otherwise only rushan is considered vital.

N

[Malcolm]

You can of course chose to ignore that if you want.

Yes, he should, his master is not all these other teachers -- his master is ChNN.

N

[padma norbu]

by the way, I never heard Namkhai Norbu say not to read about togal in the years since I've been his student. If I had heard this, I would not have read anything about togal. However, since Namdrol refers way back to 1992, I think maybe (my own presumption) that Namkhai Norbu is perhaps not so concerned about it anymore.

I must admit, the only reason I got curious was because I kept seeing others talk about it here on this forum. Specifically, I remember someone asked what makes Dzogchen different and Sonam said simply "the light." I got it in my head that this was the crucial matter of Dzogchen teaching and became interested in figuring out what he was talking about. As far as my personal instruction directly from Namkhai Norbu has always been, he has only told me to do a couple things:

1. guru yoga is main practice (medium tun or short tun or at least try to say or think "Ah" and keep that presence; he is certainly not very demanding!)
2. try to be mindful throughout the day
3. do your best

I'm sure he has mentioned togal at some point, but I don't recall him saying not to read about it. I do remember in a few talks he discussed how you can squint while looking around the sun and yadda yadda yadda he never explained why you might want to do this or what the real purpose was. If I am remembering right, it was in a talk about Zhi, Lam and Dras.

I am not sad that I read about it, but the more I think about it, the easier it is for me to see how one might become skeptical... mainly because I keep finding myself pondering it through a skeptical lens rather unintentionally.

[heart]

This is an enjoyable read. It reminds me of some of the games my teacher plays with me. Saying things like, you must practice everyday or you break your samaya. Then, I report how I practice every day these many hours and he says, Your practice is bondage, don't do like this. One time out of no where he said, "I love you." And later when I was leaving his teaching, I said, "I love you." He said, "I'm not a Tibeten girl." Then, everyone was laughing at me. Another time he said, if your visualization is clear, then you get the blessing. Later I would reported how clear my visualization was if I did such and such. He would say, clear or not clear is not important. He would tell me to report any experience I had. I reported I feel a lot of energy in my crown. He laughed at me and said "You are TRYING." I said "You want me to visualize without trying?" He just "Uh, yea." He even told me to do non-meditation as I visualize. I reported my visions of Thodgal and he said, They're illusions. "Did you perhaps as a child make a wish to become God?" I was floored with that one. Like Know without knowing. Do without doing. Basically, like get over yourself dude. Let it go. Then, I realized everything illusory comes about from trying, a view to a future becoming. Letting all that go, at the moment if seeing nothing, "appearances and possibilities manifest as the dharmakaya."

Sounds like a good teacher, no doubt he loves you.

/magnus

[heart]

Isn't there is Ngondro in SantiMaha Sangha also?

/magnus

Yes, one to three weeks of each for the main four, refuge and so on. But this is only for SMS people. Otherwise only rushan is considered vital.

N

So why would ChNN make people in the SMS do unnecessary practices? He wouldn't, It is obviously a helpful practice for Dzogchen practitioners, I even heard ChNN say that himself. So Sönam is wrong. The way ChNN introduce Ngondro seems good to me, it is difficult for beginners and difficult if you lack the view.

/magnus

[heart]

You can of course chose to ignore that if you want.

Yes, he should, his master is not all these other teachers -- his master is ChNN.

N

Or he could keep an open mind and realize there might be more than one path that leads to the top of the mountain.

/magnus

[Josef]

You can of course chose to ignore that if you want.

Yes, he should, his master is not all these other teachers -- his master is ChNN.

N

Or he could keep an open mind and realize there might be more than one path that leads to the top of the mountain.

/magnus

Which would be a bit of a contradiction.
Ngondro as we know it is a Sarma phenomena. The old school Dzogchen tantras dont really call for it.
By keeping an open mind we will be remaining open to the original Nyingma approach.

[Malcolm]

So why would ChNN make people in the SMS do unnecessary practices?

SMS level one is connected with the Dzogchen sems sde system of Sogdog Lodo Gyalpo. In his system one does a short ngondro retrea before main practice.

But if you are not an SMS student, then you are free to do what you like. Not everyone is in SMS.

In General, ChNN prefers people to understand their primordial state and to do Guru Yoga (which are the same thing). This, he feels, is much superior to any of the other uncommon preliminaries. So basically, he prefers people to skip over the other uncommon preliminaries and to make Guru Yoga their main practice until they have real knowledge (rig pa) of their primordial state. For example, he considers purification of the five elements better than Vajrasattva. And if you are going to do Vajrasattva, one week is sufficient, etc.

N

[Malcolm]

You can of course chose to ignore that if you want.

Yes, he should, his master is not all these other teachers -- his master is ChNN.

N

Or he could keep an open mind and realize there might be more than one path that leads to the top of the mountain.

/magnus

He can keep an open mind, but still follow his master's advice which is not the advice of all these other masters.

Face it Magnus, people in the DC are _never_ going to agree that they have to do ngondro, creation stage, completion stage, etc., since our master says that the tantric approach to these things is not our approach and are not necessary. This is not the path that ChNN has laid for us.

As you well know, our master, ChNN says the only necessary thing for his students is Guru Yoga of White A. On the other hand, he also says that since people have many conditions and circumstances, they should not limit themselves, and this is why he provides methods such as tara, mandarava, namkha, serkyem, chulen, yantra, etc.