Ayahuasca and Buddhism

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Yup.

[gregkavarnos]

"From our own work and from a review of the literature, we believe that pure LSD ingested in moderate doses does not damage chromosones in vivo, does not cause detectable genetic damage, and is not a tetrogen or a carcinogen in man."

~ LSD and Genetic Damage, 1971. Dishotsky et al.

"The available data suggest that pure LSD does not cause chromosomal abnormalities, spontaneous abortions, or congenital malformations."

~ Drugs in Pregnancy and Lactation, 2008. Briggs et al.

We are not talking only about LSD here. The other problem with this research is that in the real world (as opposed to the laboratory) one never acquires pure LSD from drug dealers.

Teaching tantra or Madhyamaka to the uninitiated can result in psychological trauma. So can watching The Exorcist. Psychology is fragile.

Weak argument (though true to a point), but now you are comparing taking psychedelics to learning Madhyamaka? Your arguments are becoming more and more brittle.

Both of these are incredibly weak claims, obviously not true in all cases (in today's world taking all sorts of drugs clearly improves sociability in many cases, whether MDMA on a night out or caffeine and nicotine in the workplace).

So you think we can make everybody happier and more sociable by feeding them MDMA (and overlooking the damage it does to serotonin transporters, memory loss, liver damage, etc and all the other post usage after effects?). Or maybe we get everybody to smoke and drink coffee to up their work performance (and overlook the health issues and what happens when they start going into withdrawal in the workplace?)

Memory loss is mainly, perhaps only, directly linked to cannabis - which also has beneficial implications in the treatment of chronic pain, OCD, Tourettes, glaucoma, AIDS, multiple sclerosis, naseau, asthma, epilepsy, depression, anxiety, addiction withdrawal, post-polio syndrome, Alzheimers etc.

A little more research will show you that memory loss is definitely not linked solely to marijuana use. As for medical usage, I am not denying that some of these drugs have a medical use (LSD was originally developed to deal with migranes) all I have been saying is that they are not a valid replacement nor are they an aid for meditative practice.

It probably wasn't LSD. At the very least, it probably wasn't solely LSD. Mixing up prescriptions can kill you, there is no reason why mixing other drugs wouldn't.

Whatever, I can’t prove it was pure LSD you can’t prove it wasn’t so we are wasting our time on this point. Are you under the impression that pure LSD is commercially available anyway?

People don't actually think they can fly, turn into a glass of orange juice etc. Part of the medical definition of a psychedelic and hallucinogenic drug is that they leave the intellect mostly in tact, or occasionally increased in capacity. This is the case with classical psychedelics, like LSD etc., and their analogues.

This is bullshit, anybody that has taken psychedelics can verify to you that this statement is crap. The first time you take LSD (for example) you feel that you are NEVER going to be able to think straight again.

Datura, Ketamine, GBH, PCP, Ibogaine and similar are deliriants and/or dissociatives, not psychedelics proper. Unlike pure psychedelics, they produce "true" hallucinations, that is, fantasies indistinguishable from reality, with only some (or none) of the reputed effects of classic psychedelics.

So hallucination and deliria are now two separate things?

Anything is dangerous to the unitiated and unprepared.

Sipping a cup of Earl Grey tea with my old aunt on a Sunday afternoon is not dangerous for the uninitiated and unprepared. Sitting uninitiated and unprepared for a session of Anapanasati meditation is not dangerous.

… People don't sell their bodies on the streets so that they can buy the next Call of Duty or whatever.

You are sure that they don’t? I know that they do. I have seen it.

The key difference is that psychological addiction is always symptomatic of something else. Whereas physical addiction is not necessarily.

What a ridiculous statement. In order to become physically addicted to heroin (for example) there has to be a social or psychological motivation for continuous use. All forms of addiction are symptomatic. It’s not like you wake up one day physically addicted to a substance.

… but never is it the singular cause.

I agree 100%

Some psychedelics, under the right conditions, can induce a state of mind which is -the- ideal state of mind, and what Buddha actually means, what every religion has a word for, albeit temporarily.

And this is the point where our opinions polarize, I believe that psychedelics do not induce an ideal state of mind. Quite the contrary actually.

Note that your extensive intellectual and personal experience is based on not actually taking any of these substances yourself.

Here you are referring to yourself, yes? Because, I think you will find, if you read my earlier “autobiographical” response to Karma Dhondrup Tashi, that I have taken the substances myself and no longer take the substances because I know from direct personal, and intellectual, experience that they do not in any way help one achieve real meditative experience.

PS Comparing the actions of Venerable Thich Quang Duc to a psychedelic crazed tripper jumping into a bonfire is neither valid nor tasteful in any way.

[Acchantika]

a psychedelic crazed tripper jumping into a bonfire

"Always that same LSD story, you've all seen it. 'Young man on acid, thought he could fly, jumped out of a building. What a tragedy.' What a dick! F-ck him, he’s an idiot. If he thought he could fly, why didn’t he take off on the ground first? Check it out. You don’t see ducks lined up to catch elevators to fly south—they fly from the ground, ya moron, quit ruining it for everybody. He’s a moron, he’s dead—good, we lost a moron, f-ckin’ celebrate. Wow, I just felt the world get lighter. We lost a moron! I don’t mean to sound cold, or cruel, or vicious, but I am, so that’s the way it comes out. Professional help is being sought. How about a positive LSD story? Wouldn't that be news-worthy, just the once? To base your decision on information rather than scare tactics and superstition and lies? I think it would be news-worthy. 'Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're the imagination of ourselves' . . . 'Here's Tom with the weather.'"

~ Bill Hicks

[gregkavarnos]

Except that my decision is based on personal experience and information and that I, like you, ignored "scare tactics and superstition and lies" only to find out that the "scare tactics and superstition and lies" are actually based on information, reality and truth.

It WAS a "a psychedelic crazed tripper jumping into a bonfire". His friends informed me of what he was on and I saw him jump into the fire repeatedly screaming: "you can' hurt me" as he grabbed flaming embers and burned himself to the point that he required hospitalisation. This is only one example of many that I have personally seen. Anyway, in this instance you purposefully quoted me out of context.

But, don't you feel silly, somebody that has never taken psychedelics and/or other types of drugs, trying to convince somebody with personal, intellectual and professional experience of drug use (and abuse) of your obviously misinformed view?

I give up, you are obviously smarter and more well informed than me. The stage is all yours. Please feel free to play out your tragi-comic fantasy.

[Acchantika]

But, don't you feel silly, somebody that has never taken psychedelics and/or other types of drugs, trying to convince somebody with personal, intellectual and professional experience of drug use (and abuse) of your obviously misinformed view?

What I said was I do not take drugs now.The direct implication was that I have in the past, many, many, many times. Since these drugs are highly illegal, I cannot say anymore without incriminating myself. So just think, whether I would be presenting the kind of evidence with such certitude if I had no personal, subjective knowledge of all the substances in question. (The answer is no).

Except that my decision is based on personal experience and information and that I, like you, ignored "scare tactics and superstition and lies" only to find out that the "scare tactics and superstition and lies" are actually based on information, reality and truth.

I respect your views. However, your experience and information etc. is that you took ecstacy or some unrelated drug in a bunch of clubs in the eighties, and saw some dudes do stupid shit on some unknown substance that you have no plausible way of identifying correctly. Your argument is "some guy told me". Okay, well, scientific literature can identify these chemicals correctly, and say: likely not LSD, since it has never once in recorded history initiated these kinds of effects by itself.

Believe whatever you want. Just know that these records will survive what your opinions won't.

I strongly suspect that had you had any genuine experience with these substances, within the proper set and setting prescribed as necessary by every relevant authority (e.g. not at a rave or with other people) then this conversation would never have happened. It is extremely likely since you evidently don't know even the difference between a psychedelic and a narcotic, deliriant, hallucinogen etc., nor why this difference is significant, and so cannot be expected to have known the difference 20 years ago when you were, by definition, less educated and less informed.

Please feel free to play out your tragi-comic fantasy.:

The tragi-comic fantasy I play out may be my own. However, speaking of tragi-comedy, as I implied in my post to Karma Dondrup Tashi, there is an extremely high (virtually total) probability that the very reason you are a Buddhist today is directly because of the effects of LSD and other psychedelics on Western society in the 1960s. Those young people seeking integration for their experiences, disenfranchised by the antagonistic surrounding world and those that would compare them with "rapists" and so on, are the ones that fled to India and Tibet, to whom the Tibetan diaspora began disclosing their own spirituality more openly. They are the ones that wrote the books and the articles that you read or your original muses read, that encouraged the building of the temples and the retreat centers that you are now are now a patron of and that the living masters were urged to visit and establish. In a very real way that you are unlikely to accept, the practice that likely defines your very life was itself facilitated by the very chemicals you now condemn, after 40+ years of incredibly succesful, unjustified mass demonisation. In short, you are only a Buddhist today because of LSD. Ironic, no?

Anyway, I think this discussion has spiralled away from a common core. At the end of the day, I don't know, I only have opinions. Our conclusion is essentially the same, that no drug will give you permanent, lasting enlightenment, and that any realisation gained from an external dependent cannot be meaningfully called "development". So, non-assisted yogic excercise particularly meditation is superior always. So, here is a friendly quote I think we can both agree on, from the dude himself, that pretty much summarises in a line everything that has gone before:

I did LSD and the psychedelics a little bit. It's one way to get enlightened, but you can pull a spiritual muscle doing that stuff. I learned what I had to learn and moved on. Now I meditate. ~ Jeff Bridges

[gregkavarnos]

Isn't it funny that none of the guys you quote to support your "psychedelics are conducive to meditative experience" position are yogis or lama. Strange that!

...In short, you are only a Buddhist today because of LSD. Ironic, no?

Now this is an absolute crock of shit.

Tragi-comic!

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

BBC News - Operation Julie: How An LSD Raid Began The War On Drugs

When police from around the country swooped before dawn one morning in 1977, dozens of the 800 officers working the case looked like unshaven, long-haired hippies plucked from the audience of a Pink Floyd gig.

And the vast LSD co-operative they were targeting was, if anything, even more unconventional.

Its leading members included doctors, scientists and university graduates - motivated, they insisted, by an evangelical drive to transform human consciousness itself.

But for all their peace-and-love ideals, their conspiracy was, at the time, the biggest drug ring the UK had ever seen and one of the world's largest. After officers seized a haul large enough for six million trips ...

...

It arguably represented the final death throes of the 1960s counterculture, conclusively shattering the idealism with which many had once viewed the drugs scene and marking the start of a harsher, more brutal era for the narcotics underworld.

...

"We were all extremely idealistic," he recalls. "I was convinced that this was the answer to the world's problems.

"We saw it as a new awakening out of the terrible impasse that the world had got itself into."

...

Listening devices were installed in the ringleaders' home and dozens of undercover officers were sent into west Wales posing as hippies to place them under surveillance during a 13-month operation.

Dai Rees, then a drugs squad inspector with Dyfed Powys police, was one of those who transformed themselves.

"We grew long hair, we wore jeans, we looked quite scruffy," he remembers. "To have worn a stiff collar and tie would have been impossible."

...

So the authorities demanded that the ring each pay tax on their LSD earnings.

The gang were offered a deal so that all funds taken by the police would be accepted as tax on their profits.

Leaf Fielding's tax assessment blandly itemised his earnings as a "drug salesman".

...

Fielding, who was sentenced to eight years in prison, observes that the drugs gangs who stepped into the vacuum were far nastier than his own.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14052153

[xylem]

<deleted by board request>

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

~ Bill Hicks

Ah, Bill Hicks where are you now. Grand poobah of all awesomeness forever IMHO.

*** WARNING NAUGHTY LANGUAGE ***

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Now this is an absolute crock of shit.

History is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit.
Hunter S. Thompson

THE HERESY OF ST. TIMOTHY [LEARY]

by Charles Carreon

Here come the exiles, the first generation of Eastern converts, turned out of their doctrinal houses one by one, or choosing to leave them behind before it all turns into Dharma Walmart.

It started out this way, chillun'. In the beginning there was a great void in the consciousness of Americans. And the void was darkness, and the darkness was enlivened only by the glow of TV, and not MTV. In the darkness, God's chillun' gnashed their teeth and wept, knowing they were free souls born into the heart of Babylon. And bitter were their tears, and their bread without salt. Over this land ruled the Three Kings -- alcohol, tobacco and coffee, each one a legacy of slave plantations.

And the Three Kings ruled over all the empire of the mind with a heavy hand. Put down the pot pipe, brown man. Put down the opium pipe, yellow man. Put down those musical instruments, black man. And whenever the Three Kings found the men of color breaking the rules, worshipping their own gods, savoring their own sacraments, they were exceeding wroth with them, and smote them.

And lo, the Three Kings waxed forth in might, and added a fourth king, petrol, the liquid fire that fed their iron horses. And the Four Kings in all their might reached out upon the earth and made subjects of all men. With intense harshness, the Four Kings crushed the substance of matter itself, allowing the forbidden flame of the sun to blossom on the surface of the earth. And they smote the yellow man with the flame of the sun, to make him mindful of their power.

But the children of freedom conspired to be born in the houses of the oppressors, the vassals of the Four Kings. They risked their sanity by becoming children of those harsh and dominating ones who had subjugated all the earth. And in the vast wasteland was heard the voice of St. Timothy, crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord. Every hill shall be brought low and every valley raised up that his way may be straight." And St. Timothy sacrificed his royal crown of scholarship to make way for the blessing of spirit.

Seeing St. Timothy's martyrdom inspired the children of freedom hidden in the homes of the oppressors. The light of his transforming substances broke forth over the skies like noon at midnight, and the children of freedom rushed out from the houses of darkness, to follow the pied piper to freedom, never to return to the City of Babylon.

Many moons passed and the children of freedom feared they would perish in the wilderness. St. Timothy had fled, hiding from the wrath of the Four Kings. And like the children of Israel abandoned by Moses, they sought to raise up images to pacify their fear. Then came the Age of the Prophets, true or false, who could say? Each prophet claimed his doctrine to be superior. Some prophets joined to support each other, and others established their own houses of prophecy and eventually the children of freedom became the indentured servants of old beliefs. The children of freedom, fleeing the doctrine of the Four Kings discarded the sacraments that St. Timothy had brought, and shut themselves away with learning and piety.

Many more moons passed, yeah and turnings of the year. The children of freedom began to chafe under the new tyranny of the prophets. "Why?" some dared to ask. The prophets always answered the same, "Because thus it has been taught." Some bolder ones asked, "Does the doctrine permit us to enjoy the sacrament of St. Timothy?" Quick came the answer, "St. Timothy's doctrines are heretical, and his sacrament is poison." These very words were spoken by those who had learned much of what they knew thanks to St. Timothy's sacrament, and these were the scribes and pharisees of the prophets.

So the children of freedom once again left the houses of their masters, wandering forth from the temples of the prophets into the open lands of the future. Which is where we find them.
http://www.american-buddha.com/heresy.timothy.htm#THE%20HERESY%20OF%20ST.%20TIMOTHY

Zen and Buddhist stock rose sharply while Yoga, Brahmanist and Vedantist issues plummeted.... In London, Blake enjoyed a mild rise, Hume skyrocketed, Aldous Huxley weakened, then held, and penny-a-share issues such as Aleister Crowley and Yeats disappeared entirely from view ... In Paris, former glamor stocks like Sartre and Camus began to look a little green around the gills.... such superficially disparate stocks as Thoreau, Nabokov, Borges, and Norman O. Brown were driven to undreamed of levels.... All the Zen masters spiralled into the blue.... Freud and Jung went through wild gyrations resembling an aerial dogfight, before both sank gradually to earth.... the I Ching went through the roof. The Gita crashed.... Shakespeare, unlike almost every other stock being traded, remained absolutely stable.
Arthur Kleps, quoted in Lee & Shlain, 1992

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

what grieves me is this compulsion to associate this with the dharma.

[Dechen Norbu]

Well, this thread has gone way, way astray from its initial purpose: Ayahuasca and Buddhism.
I guess it is time to give it a rest, since this forum doesn't seem the adequate place to discuss drug usage, and place it at another forum, perhaps more suited for this kind of discussions. If someone wants to debate the topic, PM me please and I'll consider reopening it.

Best wishes,

DN

EDIT: So, guys, the topic is open again. Let's try to keep it this way.

[MJH]

Just wanted to add some words from my teacher......

[ryu]

Hi all,

Ive only just noticed this topic and it has a massive relevance to my journey / spiritual path.

I came to Buddhism through Ayahuasca. I have been working with this plant for a number of years. I initially sought refuge in Ayahuasca as i had issues with drink and drugs. I tried eveything else ie Narcotics Anonymous and got nowhere. I only came across Ayahuasca because i was desperate to resolve my addictive behaviour.

The compounds in Ayahuasca are DMT (di-methyl-tryptamine) Harmine, Harmaline and Tetrahydraharmaline. All of these molecules are naturally produced by the human body. The latter beta-carbolines can be toxic in HIGH DOSES but you would need to consume a hell of alot of Ayahuasca to reach such a dose and Ayahuasca is not something that is in danger of being abused in recreational and high doses as it tastes absolutely disgusting and the ceremony is often difficult for example pooping and projectile vomiting without warning.

Ayahuasca cleanses and heals body, mind and spirit. Its is the only substance you can take where you feel refreshed the following morning. It completely detoxes your whole system and re-balances you. The Harmine in the Ayahuasca helps addicts by sitting in place of the damaged dopamine receptors in the brain. It is the damaged dopamine receptors that make an addict crave and relapse. a study with the UDV in Brazil shown that Ayahuasca also resets the serotonin levels in the brain to a higher level. Serotonin is said to be linked to to happiness, empathy, contentment and inner peace.The groups studied in South America that use Ayahuasca on a regular basis have been shown to exhibit all these qualities.

I find i dont often use Ayahauasca anymore. I felt i needed it at the time and it helped me to lay to rest the demon drink and drugs that occupied my mind. Prior to partaking in my first Ayahuasca ceremony i was 4 stone overweight and negative in my attitudes. I am now fit and healthy, i watch what i eat and i am very conscious of my relationship with all living things hence my interest in Buddhism and meditation. I believe Ayahuasca helped me get to where i am now whereas prior to this nothing else worked.

Thanks

Ryu

[gregkavarnos]

The compounds in Ayahuasca are DMT (di-methyl-tryptamine) Harmine, Harmaline and Tetrahydraharmaline. All of these molecules are naturally produced by the human body.

So are anabolic steroids, that does not mean that one should then take anabolics now does it?

The latter beta-carbolines can be toxic in HIGH DOSES but you would need to consume a hell of alot of Ayahuasca to reach such a dose and Ayahuasca is not something that is in danger of being abused in recreational and high doses as it tastes absolutely disgusting and the ceremony is often difficult for example pooping and projectile vomiting without warning.

Cigarettes taste disgusting but people smoke them. Alchol intoxication can lead to vomiting, pooping and urinating but people still take it. Heroin leads to vomiting and severe constipation but people still take it. The list goes on... Basically just because a drug may have nasty side effects does not mean that somebody is not going to take it.

It completely detoxes your whole system and re-balances you.

Source please.

The Harmine in the Ayahuasca helps addicts by sitting in place of the damaged dopamine receptors in the brain. It is the damaged dopamine receptors that make an addict crave and relapse.

Sits in the place of damaged doapmine receptors??? Damaged dopamine receptors lead to craving and relapse??? More sources please.

Serotonin is said to be linked to to happiness, empathy, contentment and inner peace.The groups studied in South America that use Ayahuasca on a regular basis have been shown to exhibit all these qualities.

Many people all over the world exhibit these qualities without ever having taken any drug.

I believe Ayahuasca helped me get to where i am now whereas prior to this nothing else worked.

I believe that you helped yourself get where you are now. Actually I am 100% sure of it. Good on you for kicking the habits!

[zangskar]

Thanks for your story, ryu. I would advise you against engaging in debate here though. There are many people who only wants to see one message: all drugs are bad. So there's no reason to explain the details about banisteriopsis caapi and the additives to them. Just be happy about what it did to you, and let the people enjoy their belief about drugs, which though not correct in all details (i.e. they don't know the first thing about ayahuasca) is all in all a very beneficial belief to hold.

EDIT TO SAY - I didn't mean to say you shouldn't engage in ANY debate, just this particular one which I didn't see fruitful. Hope you didn't misunderstand me. Welcome on the forum!!

Best wishes
Lars

[ryu]

Thanks Zangskar

[ryu]

And thankyou Greg for your thought provoking responses. I love reading your posts

[padma norbu]

I was reading about the experiences of various people who attended such ceremonies in the Amazonian jungle retreats. They described seeing various creatures, meeting gods, spirits and other things. Is it just hallucination?

Of course. Take a drug, see god. Drug wears off, visuals disappear. Pretty cut and dried occam's razor situation we have here.

The funny thing, though, and the reason I wanted to reply to you is because a lot of people know hallucinogens are drugs that have effects and they just want to see what they do. Then, they experiment and they forget somehow all about this prior knowledge. The more they get involved in the drugs, the more they get confused and fall prey to delusions. It's so obvious to an observer, but I have seen a lot of pro-drug people turn into idiots, basically, after a lot of psychedelic use. For some reason, people come to believe the effects of the drug open a window to reality that doesn't normally exist and, despite what their lying eyes tell them, hold onto these abstract concepts about "all is one," that they glimpsed while hallucinating or in deep delirium. They can't even communicate their thoughts clearly, but they hold onto the vague ideas strongly and get irritated by anyone who suggests they might be wrong. Typically, the belief I have seen that comes out of this can be summed up as: we are all one, God is in everything, all paths lead to the same goal which is the eventual realization where we "wake up" to this reality. It comes with a faraway psychedelic gleam in the eye. I feel like the stupider people usually feel content with this, the smarter people realize there's something to doubt about it, such as: well, how do I get to that realization, fully? And then, they either do more drugs and ruin their brain eventually... or give up out of frustration and go back to being a "normal" person (but more frazzled and easily upset)... or go nuts... or realize that drugs actually just showed the power of mind to create false realities and then give them up and get involved with Buddhism or Hinduism (usually one or the other).

[padma norbu]

Take a look at these idiots: