What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

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What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sergei » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:10 am

Most information about Tsem Rinpoche comes from his own websites, and those of his students. It is hard to find critical voices, or neutral sources of information. There is some guy on the internet who accuses him of worshipping Dorje Shugden (Tsem denies this), and I recall seeing some criticism of the way the Kechara soup kitchen was run (with too heavy an emphasis on attracting positive coverage for the religious group). Is there anything else a spiritual seeker ought to know?
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:38 pm

You can't assess a Spiritual Teacher by consulting the internet! If you want to investigate Tsem Tulku as a Teacher, you should read his books and preferably receive teachings from him directly, then make up your own mind using the ten points that are listed in the lamrim teachings (taken from Maitreya's 'Ornament for Mahayana Sutras') for assessing a Spiritual Teacher. You can also investigate the lineage of Teachings that come from him to satisfy yourself that they are authentic.

Don't rely on rumours and gossip but upon your own cognition.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby maybay » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:40 pm

Youtube debating with a lay man surrounded by devoted women felt bit odd.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Josef » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:49 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Don't rely on rumours and gossip but upon your own cognition.

We definitely should not rely on rumors and gossip but countless people have failed themselves by relying upon their own cognition.
If our cognition was infallible we wouldnt be in samsara at all.
People should certainly investigate for themselves but there are also very safe choices that people can turn to and feel confident in such as HH Dalai Lama and HH Sakya Trizin.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Caz » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:03 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:You can't assess a Spiritual Teacher by consulting the internet! If you want to investigate Tsem Tulku as a Teacher, you should read his books and preferably receive teachings from him directly, then make up your own mind using the ten points that are listed in the lamrim teachings (taken from Maitreya's 'Ornament for Mahayana Sutras') for assessing a Spiritual Teacher. You can also investigate the lineage of Teachings that come from him to satisfy yourself that they are authentic.

Don't rely on rumours and gossip but upon your own cognition.


I second this :good: Tsem Rinpoche is a very compassionate and wise teacher who relies sincerly on his Gurus and sets a perfect example of practice.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Tilopa » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:47 pm

All good people have their critics. Some people may be jealous or hold a grudge for whatever reason or maybe the person just isn't perfect. Even Buddha had his enemies. Look at Tsem Tulkus activities and whether or not he helps his students and teaches true dharma and draw your own conclusions. He has been properly trained in the Tibetan tradition, claims to follow the Dalai Lama's advice regarding his practice and can be seen in many videos praising HH and other great teachers so there's no reason to assume there's any problem. All Lamas have a distinct personality that appeals to some but not others. If you don't like his style don't follow him.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sergei » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:45 am

Of course we should not "rely on rumors," but surely it is possible to consider any criticism that may exist on its merits.

I have read several of his books, and books by his students, and listened to him on youtube. I can't afford to fly to Malaysia just to check him out, and even if I did, he's a busy man.

So I ask again--what do his critics say?
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Tilopa » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:11 am

Sergei wrote:So I ask again--what do his critics say?

Who exactly are his critics anyway?
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:54 am

Sergei wrote:...I can't afford to fly to Malaysia just to check him out, and even if I did, he's a busy man.
So find yourself a lama that is near you and that you can have access to and start to practice in earnest.

Leave aside the gossip since it is, after all, an example of wrong/unwholesome speech. You can only gain negative karmic outcomes by engaging in gossip.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sergei » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:06 am

Not all criticism is gossip.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Caz » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:21 pm

Sergei wrote:Of course we should not "rely on rumors," but surely it is possible to consider any criticism that may exist on its merits.

I have read several of his books, and books by his students, and listened to him on youtube. I can't afford to fly to Malaysia just to check him out, and even if I did, he's a busy man.

So I ask again--what do his critics say?


Why would you want to listen to critics ? They are not helpful for developing faith in a teacher or the Dharma that is taught. :rules:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:28 pm

Sergei wrote:Not all criticism is gossip.
Listening to criticism, even if the criticism is valid, merely for the sake of listening to criticism (ie it has no real bearing on your current situation) is gossip and idle chatter.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:49 pm

Caz wrote:
Sergei wrote:Of course we should not "rely on rumors," but surely it is possible to consider any criticism that may exist on its merits.

I have read several of his books, and books by his students, and listened to him on youtube. I can't afford to fly to Malaysia just to check him out, and even if I did, he's a busy man.

So I ask again--what do his critics say?


Why would you want to listen to critics ? They are not helpful for developing faith in a teacher or the Dharma that is taught. :rules:


Well.....they may be helpful in avoiding some "teachers." Personally, when I am investigating anything, especially something as important as a Guru, I'd check out what others say, and do research. Of course, you must weigh all sources, and the best evidence is still that of the teacher him or herself. I'm speaking generally, here, and not about Tsem Tulku, about whom I know next to nothing. But, in general, it's a good idea to examine a Guru for an extended period, and in an extended way, prior to making commitments.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Sergei » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:40 am

Look, guys--I've been burned once, and don't want it to happen again. If not for sincere critics (in this case anthropologist Jessica Falcone) I would never have learned about the FPMT Maitreya Project. Certainly the FPMT newsletter Mandala would never have presented a balanced view. (Before you ask, no--I have never accepted Thubten Zopa as my teacher.)

Some of you seem to think that it is wrong to criticize any teacher. I wonder how you can practice this consistently. (What about the Aum Shinrikyo guy? The Shugden people? Aro gTer? Hell, for all you know, I may be a teacher too!)

Is anyone willing to point me to any actual critics, or are we just going to argue over the nature of the question?
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby catmoon » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:11 am

I took a look around the net and found it very hard to find anything critical about Tsem Tulku. There was some issue about whether or not he was doing banned practices, which he seems to have cleared up nicely.

Personally, I would never attend his teachings or consider him as a guru candidate. However, his reputation seems to be about as stainless as they come and his formal qualifications are very impressive indeed.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Josef » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:29 am

catmoon wrote:I took a look around the net and found it very hard to find anything critical about Tsem Tulku. There was some issue about whether or not he was doing banned practices, which he seems to have cleared up nicely.

I have a feeling this has to do with confusion more than anything.
I had some encounters with Tsem Tulku's organization through my work at one point and they were very sincere in their statements that they did not participate in or support the practice that we all know is the issue.
They seem very devoted to the guardian practice of Setrapchen practice and perhaps people who dont know the difference confuse the two.
I'm just speculating but they seem to be sincere.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Heruka » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:44 am

Sergei wrote:
Is anyone willing to point me to any actual critics, or are we just going to argue over the nature of the question?



is anyone willing to point me to any actual fans, or are we just going to argue over a question pushed over the web about a persons reputation?

fan boys say sunshines out of the ass, haters say, no it dont.....

lol, what to do.....?

walk away.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby maybay » Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:35 am

What is the nature of the question? - that would make a fantastic koan
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Caz » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:50 pm

Sergei wrote:Look, guys--I've been burned once, and don't want it to happen again. If not for sincere critics (in this case anthropologist Jessica Falcone) I would never have learned about the FPMT Maitreya Project. Certainly the FPMT newsletter Mandala would never have presented a balanced view. (Before you ask, no--I have never accepted Thubten Zopa as my teacher.)

Some of you seem to think that it is wrong to criticize any teacher. I wonder how you can practice this consistently. (What about the Aum Shinrikyo guy? The Shugden people? Aro gTer? Hell, for all you know, I may be a teacher too!)

Is anyone willing to point me to any actual critics, or are we just going to argue over the nature of the question?


What exactly are people Critising of Tsem Rinpoche ? I cant find anything it seems your just looking for negatives unneededly.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: What do Tsem Rinpoche's critics say?

Postby Caz » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:00 pm

catmoon wrote:I took a look around the net and found it very hard to find anything critical about Tsem Tulku. There was some issue about whether or not he was doing banned practices, which he seems to have cleared up nicely.

Personally, I would never attend his teachings or consider him as a guru candidate. However, his reputation seems to be about as stainless as they come and his formal qualifications are very impressive indeed.


You never know who is doing what practice in reality you cant run into a Gelug whom hasnt recieved transmissions from the great masters and not done this practice. Funny things is I can see why there is so little activity on the Gelug board when people make implications that lineage transmissions they recieved are degenerate or give light to accusations made by the those with a sectarian agenda who carelessly gossip on the internet about teachers and what practice they may or may not do.

The only way to know if such a teacher is good or not is to go and see them or get some communication from them, gossip from armchair Dharmists is not to be taken seriously those who go round looking for faults in people will find them easily and never recieve any benefit from Dharma or Dharma teachers.
Last edited by Caz on Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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