Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

[deepbluehum]

So who is this "master of vajra samadhi" that you say you interact with?

/magnus

Any master with a lineage and realization will do.

[Sönam]

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. ...

Namo Guru Bhyah!

Tenerife is awesome.

N
̄

and I hesitate ... I did'nt meet the conditions!
possibly next time ...

[Inge]

...
ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
...
N
̄

This was as I expected, but didn't fully believe. To afraid of being turned down I didn't dare even ask for permission to come. Hopefully the opportunity will arise again.

[Paul]

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.

There was no empowerment. Rinpoche did only the very simplest of introductions during the first session and has spent the last three days explaining how to do this practice very thoroughly through all four visions, how to recognize them, how to develop them and the signs of attaining each one.

That's just mind blowing.

[Pero]

...
Tenerife is awesome.
̄

I'm glad you were able to go to these teachings!
And a little bit envious too I guess haha. One question, was it his Longsal Thogal?

[Pema Rigdzin]

Thanks Pema Rigdzin. This seems like a reasonable approach. But I wonder if it is the only approach? I don't remember hearing ChNN say that khorde rushen is nescessary. Not while I have listened at least. Sometimes I hear him mention the differnt methods available to use if one does not recognize during transmission though.

Its not the only approach. Korde Rushen is a bit less rigid than other preliminaries. A lot of it is based on the signs and the practices themselves.
Either way, you wouldnt spend years on rushen. Usually they can be done pretty quickly.

Is it "the only approach"? Maybe not, but I can't think of any other Dzogchen approach that matches combining guru yoga with khorde rushen, thoroughly going through each one from first to last. If it's not "the only" approach, it sure seems to be the one that every Dzogchen master alive today took. Vimalamitra practiced rushen 6 months out of every year of his Dzogchen-practicing life and he went on realize the highest Dzogchen accomplishment possible - the rainbow body of great transference, aka rainbow body during life, bypassing death altogether. That he accomplished this after so much rushen is not surprising: one of rushen's principle purposes is to accomplish the purification of body, speech, and mind required to bring one's togal practice to complete fruition in the rainbow body of great transference.

Regarding the duration of khorde rushen practices, it's true that one wouldn't typically spend years on it before ever beginning with Dzogchen proper. Texts typically mention things like practicing each rushen for anywhere from 3 days to a month; but of course the signs are much more important. However, the signs are pretty lofty, and in my experience, it seems like it would take much more than just the bare minimum to get those signs. I assume this is why Vima kept practicing it periodically for the rest of his life until accomplishing the great transference.

[Malcolm]

...
Tenerife is awesome.
̄

I'm glad you were able to go to these teachings!
And a little bit envious too I guess haha. One question, was it his Longsal Thogal?

Yes.

[Pero]

...
Tenerife is awesome.
̄

I'm glad you were able to go to these teachings!
And a little bit envious too I guess haha. One question, was it his Longsal Thogal?

Yes.

Awesome.

[Virgo]

There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.

Tenerife is awesome.

N

̄

That's great Loppon. We are all rejoicing in your merits.

Kevin

[Sudarsha]

If vipassanā/vipaśyanā is the “recognition” of what samatha/śamatha is all about, then, can we postulate that thod rgal is the “recognition” of or vipassanā/vipaśyanā of khregschod? For example, khregschod is like experiencing the silence of the empty room of awareness — empty of any kind of differentiation — but thod rgal is actually entering that empty room of awareness and directly experiencing the living activity, the “being” of that emptiness.

In a recent television programme, Stephen Hawking observed that “light” and electromagnetic waves are essentially the same. Our mental activity is, essentially, electromagnetic activity. Thus it would seem that thod rgal is the recognition (vipassanā/vipaśyanā) of that coexistent knowing-being.

Does this make any kind of sense.

[oldbob]

If vipassanā/vipaśyanā is the “recognition” of what samatha/śamatha is all about, then, can we postulate that thod rgal is the “recognition” of or vipassanā/vipaśyanā of khregschod? For example, khregschod is like experiencing the silence of the empty room of awareness — empty of any kind of differentiation — but thod rgal is actually entering that empty room of awareness and directly experiencing the living activity, the “being” of that emptiness.

In a recent television programme, Stephen Hawking observed that “light” and electromagnetic waves are essentially the same. Our mental activity is, essentially, electromagnetic activity. Thus it would seem that thod rgal is the recognition (vipassanā/vipaśyanā) of that coexistent knowing-being.

Does this make any kind of sense.

Dear Sudarsha, all and All,

Yes, Sudarsha's analogy sounds loosely right, but maybe it is not so useful to understand what to do.

The key point is to get some experience that turns your Wheel.

My very sincere 2 cents, is don't waste your time staring at the moon, while your pot on the stove is boiling over.

Take things one at a time. Accomplish everything one by one.

Remember that some traditionalists (the precious Payul Lineage) teach Togal before Tregchod.

Remember that some traditionalists (everyone else except Venerable ChNNR) teaches Tregchod before Togal, and that Venerable ChNNR has said that you need perfect Tregchod for Togal to work.

Remember that Venerable ChNNR teaches whatever he feels to at the moment - depending on circumstances, and sometimes with a lot of forethought and planning, and required permissions.

This all makes perfect sense in the totality, and is very difficult to make any sense of in the moment of individual circumstance - as in, "what do I do now?"

The bottom line is that what we should do is whatever our root Teacher tells us to, and full speed ahead, and damn the cognitive dissonance - should any exist.

---------------------------------------

That said, from my personal experience (after 2 ngondros, 3 Yeshe Lama Retreats and 30 years with Venerable ChNNR):

you can do the Rushens at any time under the guidance of a Master.

The successful practice of the Rushens establishes the emptiness of all phenomena, and more.

You can do the Purification of the 6 Lokas at any time, under the guidance of a Master.

The successful practice of the Purification of the 6 Lokas establishes the emptiness of all phenomena, and more.

You can do Togal, with the permission of a Master, under the guidance of a Master (not necessarily the same Master) and this is safe.

The successful practice of Togal establishes the emptiness of all phenomena, and more.

I requested permission from Venerable ChNNR, Venerable Dodrup Chen Rinpoche and Venerable Chatral Rinpoche before I undertook Togal.

In retrospect, I think that 1 permission is enough. I also made sure that I did my Togal retreats under the guidance of a Master, in a favorable setting - a place where Guru Rinpoche practiced. Maybe I was overcautious, but this worked for me.

You never know what what a Master will say, and you must accept any answer, with equanimity, gratitude and TRUST. That works for me.

I am quite sure that I have not completed any of these lofty practices, which are way beyond my capacity and understanding, and have no signs of accomplishment at all.

It has been a great, and on-going, adventure.




Hope this helps!

Good fortune for all and ALL.

May the Dzogchen Masters live long, in good health, and with success in all things.

[Sherlock]

I am quite sure that I have not completed any of these lofty practices, which are way beyond my capacity and understanding, and have no signs of accomplishment at all.

dorje e gabbana quoted Rinpoche as often saying that only if you can hold your hand in a fire without getting burnt then you have some sign of accomplishment -- DeG took it to mean as Rinpoche implying that that is actually an achievable goal for most people, and he says Rinpoche seldom says that nowadays. This is actually not true though, he says it a few times in recent times, in fact at my first retreat with him last year I think he said something similar, if you can hold your hand in the fire while we all sing the SoV then you maybe have some accomplishment, something like that. Otherwise you should always practise, in fact in the book about Purification of the Six Lokas, he says that as long as you have a human body, that means your karmic traces are not purified and you can always practise that.

[Andrew108]

I am quite sure that I have not completed any of these lofty practices, which are way beyond my capacity and understanding, and have no signs of accomplishment at all.

dorje e gabbana quoted Rinpoche as often saying that only if you can hold your hand in a fire without getting burnt then you have some sign of accomplishment -- DeG took it to mean as Rinpoche implying that that is actually an achievable goal for most people, and he says Rinpoche seldom says that nowadays. This is actually not true though, he says it a few times in recent times, in fact at my first retreat with him last year I think he said something similar, if you can hold your hand in the fire while we all sing the SoV then you maybe have some accomplishment, something like that. Otherwise you should always practise, in fact in the book about Purification of the Six Lokas, he says that as long as you have a human body, that means your karmic traces are not purified and you can always practise that.

Being able to put your hand in a fire and keep it there isn't a sign of accomplishment either.
As to Thögyal - it is not part of a 'path of practice' or just 'method to achieve goal'. If looked at that way then it is misunderstood and Dzogchen is seen as a path with causes and results.
Thögyal is a gift from the teacher. You just have to figure out what the teacher is. But that's why we do Guru Yoga right?

[Sherlock]

It is a sign that you really have integrated the elements -- I don't know if it's the same as rainbow body though.

[heart]

I am quite sure that I have not completed any of these lofty practices, which are way beyond my capacity and understanding, and have no signs of accomplishment at all.

dorje e gabbana quoted Rinpoche as often saying that only if you can hold your hand in a fire without getting burnt then you have some sign of accomplishment -- DeG took it to mean as Rinpoche implying that that is actually an achievable goal for most people, and he says Rinpoche seldom says that nowadays. This is actually not true though, he says it a few times in recent times, in fact at my first retreat with him last year I think he said something similar, if you can hold your hand in the fire while we all sing the SoV then you maybe have some accomplishment, something like that. Otherwise you should always practise, in fact in the book about Purification of the Six Lokas, he says that as long as you have a human body, that means your karmic traces are not purified and you can always practise that.

Being able to put your hand in a fire and keep it there isn't a sign of accomplishment either.
As to Thögyal - it is not part of a 'path of practice' or just 'method to achieve goal'. If looked at that way then it is misunderstood and Dzogchen is seen as a path with causes and results.
Thögyal is a gift from the teacher. You just have to figure out what the teacher is. But that's why we do Guru Yoga right?

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path. There is certainly a path, both in Trechö and Tögal but as the view, the natural state, can't improve or change in any way Dzogchen is often referred to as a non-gradual path. The view is non-gradual but there is certainly a path getting used to that view, resting longer and longer in the natural state. In Tögal there is the four visions, which is the path how the visions develop under normal circumstances. This is happening by getting used to and fully realizing. or integrating, inseparable kadag and lhundrup.

/magnus

[Andrew108]

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path. There is certainly a path, both in Trechö and Tögal but as the view, the natural state, can't improve or change in any way Dzogchen is often referred to as a non-gradual path. The view is non-gradual but there is certainly a path getting used to that view, resting longer and longer in the natural state. In Tögal there is the four visions, which is the path how the visions develop under normal circumstances. This is happening by getting used to and fully realizing. or integrating, inseparable kadag and lhundrup.

/magnus

Hi Magnus,
It's really not like this. If you want I could explain more.

[Malcolm]

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path.

Definitely not.

[heart]

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path. There is certainly a path, both in Trechö and Tögal but as the view, the natural state, can't improve or change in any way Dzogchen is often referred to as a non-gradual path. The view is non-gradual but there is certainly a path getting used to that view, resting longer and longer in the natural state. In Tögal there is the four visions, which is the path how the visions develop under normal circumstances. This is happening by getting used to and fully realizing. or integrating, inseparable kadag and lhundrup.

/magnus

Hi Magnus,
It's really not like this. If you want I could explain more.

What are your qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher? I didn't make this up you know.

/magnus

[heart]

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path.

Definitely not.

It is called Vajrayana. "Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayana" ChNNR

Edit: I understand that this is a also a name for the Lamdre teachings (after some google) I of course don't mean that Dzogchen is a part of Lamdre.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path.

Definitely not.

It is called Vajrayana. "Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayana" ChNNR

Edit: I understand that this is a also a name for the Lamdre teachings (after some google) I of course don't mean that Dzogchen is a part of Lamdre.

/magnus

One does not take the path as the result in Dzogchen. For example, Vajrayāna is nominally part of Mahāyāna, nevertheless, Vajrayāna is not a causal vehicle. Vajrayāna in general is the result vehicle. Likewise, Dzogchen is nominally part of the both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna but it is the vehicle beyond cause and result.

Hence my negation of your statement.