Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

[Karma Dorje]

WE must be careful when we judge what may be realized peoples.
Ram Dass years and years ago gave a massive dose of a hallucigen to his guru of the time. Unbeknowest to the guru.
No effect whatsoever was noticed by anyone.

Actually his guru Neem Karoli Baba asked him for the doses to prove to him that it was irrelevant. He took a massive amount, it was true. And it had no apparent effect on him. This was before Richard Alpert received the name Ramdas, still close on the heels of the Harvard Psychedelic Project. Thenceforth, he stopped his exploration of psychedelics and began his long journey in seva sadhana.

[ronnewmexico]

Well recollection is not perfect.

I thought I recalled hearing this from Ram Dasses mouth himself, not read in a book or some such... many years ago(19 or so) ..but perhaps I have a faulted recollection or there were several incidents of this. or recollections of this?

If you were there however I will certainly cede this to my faulted recollection to every extent.
I was not there so I only report it as I heard it..and still that may be faulted by my recollection.

If from a book I could see reasons why they would not want to imply unknowing ingestion by another persons intention.
Certainly such would be a chargeable legal offense in many countries such as india perhaps..so I could see why I would not state such in a book...but perhaps you were there..?

[Karma Dorje]

Well recollection is not perfect.

I thought I recalled hearing this from Ram Dasses mouth himself, not read in a book or some such... many years ago(19 or so) ..but perhaps I have a faulted recollection or there were several incidents of this. or recollections of this?

If you were there however I will certainly cede this to my faulted recollection to every extent.
I was not there so I only report it as I heard it..and still that may be faulted by my recollection.

If from a book I could see reasons why they would not want to imply unknowing ingestion by another persons intention.
Certainly such would be a chargeable legal offense in many countries such as india perhaps..so I could see why I would not state such in a book...but perhaps you were there..?

Ram Dass has recounted this many times over the years. The account from Miracle of Love is as follows:

"In 1967 when I first came to India, I brought with me a supply of LSD, hoping to find someone who might understand more about these substances than we did in the West. When I had met Maharajji(Neem Karoli Baba), after some days the thought had crossed my mind that he would be a perfect person to ask.

The next day after having that thought, I was called to him and he asked me immediately, "Do you have a question?"
Of course, being before him was such a powerful experience that I had completely forgotten the question I had had in my mind the night before. So I looked stupid and said, "No, Maharajji, I have no question."
He appeared irritated and said, "Where is the medicine?"
I was confused but Bhagavan Dass suggested,
"Maybe he means the LSD." I asked and Maharajji nodded. The bottle of LSD was in the car and I was sent to fetch it.

When I returned I emptied the vial of pills into my hand.
In addition to the LSD there were a number of other pills for this and that--diarrhea, fever, a sleeping pill, and so forth. He asked about each of these. He asked if they gave powers. I didn't understand at the time and thought that by "powers" perhaps he meant physical strength. I said, "No." Later, of course, I came to understand that the word he had used, "siddhis," means psychic powers.
Then he held out his hand for the LSD. I put one pill on his palm.
Each of these pills was about three hundred micrograms of very pure LSD-
-a solid dose for an adult. He beckoned for more, so I put a second pill in his hand--six hundred micrograms. Again he beckoned and I added yet another, making the total dosage 900 micrograms--certainly not a dose for beginners. Then he threw all the pills into his mouth. My reaction was one of shock mixed with fascination of a social scientist eager to see what would happen. He allowed me to stay for an hour--

and nothing happened.

Nothing whatsover.
He just laughed at me.

The whole thing had happened very fast and unexpectedly. When I returned to the United States in 1968 I told many people about this acid feat. But there had remained in me a gnawing doubt that perhaps he had been putting me on and had thrown the pills over his shoulder or palmed them, because I hadn't actually seen them go into his mouth and had thrown the pills over his shoulder or palmed them, because I hadn't actually seen them go into his mouth."

More to be found at: http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/neem-ka ... lpert.html

If you think that anyone could pull over something on Neem Karoli Baba, like slipping him acid unbeknownst to him I must humbly disagree.

[ronnewmexico]

Don't know the man at all. So don't know what could be slipped or not slipped. NOr the circumstance of slippage.

But do know I attended a talk Ram Dass gave 19 or so years ago and don't much read Ram Dasses books as I find them not very readable. As a consequence of his talk I volunteered for quite some time at a local research and information center. As they sponsored him and he referenced them.
But I read a lot so you never know recollection is not perfect, at least mine is not.
Had a hot tub...remember that also, and a couple of other things.

That all of course is not significant to my point....we can't judge Trungpa by my take. That is my point.
Your point is...recollection is not perfect...I agree.......... mine is not.
I am saying this man is a dupe for having drugs slipped to him....no that is not intended and most would not suggest I am saying that in my statement.

So to point..what is your point?

[Karma Dorje]

So to point..what is your point?

The point is, you just can't say what is going on in the mind of a mahasiddha so it is best not to worry about it. The other point is that given this is a public forum, it is best to have the account you mentioned from the horse's mouth lest the story end up being in a few iterations that Ram Dass's guru gave him LSD and insisted that he bring it to America. When authoritative accounts exist, and we have Google, we should strive to source our recollections. A little less prolix, a little closer to the facts, everyone benefits.

[ronnewmexico]

Well this is a diversion from point, but I will indulge this diversion with appologies to the initial poster and those that have contributed to point..


You think then the written word is then the truth of things, that is your contention.
You do realize things are edited by editiors who are not authors for reason of protection of the publishinghouse from legal implication.
And that sometimes authors will change things for purpose legal or other wise.

If you read the thing you have posted what you have read you will find a inconsistancy in it.
In your written account firstly the guru asks for pills and Ram Dass brings him a bunch of different pills.
Then seemingly out of the blue he asks Ram Dass to give him the LSD.
And Ramm Dass not only gives him one but a bunch, at his request.

NO...the writtten account does not flow as things flow in the real world....so I surmise it had editorial influence.
You take as fact what you posted is fact.
From hearing Ram Dass speak I got the distinct impression the guru did not know he was taking that great amount of LSD, nor necessarly any LSD.
That is slipping someone LSD. He gave it to him but he did not know what it was.

So you say I should not say this...no I may say that.
It is in any event a aside to point. The point being that a realized spiritual person may take things and feel no effect. Trungpa may not have been drunk ever(I don't know).

One example of a thing of writing comes to mind.
A piece in Wolfes story about Ken Kesey and them has a part where the hells angels start gang banging a certain males girlfriend right in front of him.
That person being described as a sad sack person, the male.
Turns out that male was Neal Cassedy, a hero of the counterculture displayed not by name in that part of the book for certain reasons.
Point being..... what is written in these things about those days are not necessarily literal truth. It is infered the male is a sad sack having his girlfriend gang raped by hells angels enmasse, and he is standing by watching her and them with a sadness, like a sad ofe.
So that, considering who was the male, was probably not the case. For one reason or another it was changed. Cassedy was a main character in that book. Cassedy had publishers and works in the work at the time as did many others involved. There may have been reason for not naming Cassedy in this fashion as it appeared deragatory in reference.
Likewise Ram Dass slipping someone LSD giving it to them when they did not really know what they were taking(which is slipping) could be deragatory and illegal. If the guru knew it was LSD why so much why not just one or perhaps two?
The inferal is...he knew not really what he was taking.


Your source from book source as mentioned if you read it does not flow.
I would suggest it is editorilized for content, as it appears to conflict with what I heard Ram Dass say.
YOu say I heard wrong and am implying all sorts of bad things.
I say I may not have heard nor recollected wrong and you are claiming wrongly all written by authors is factually representing what has happened, when I display by example such from this generation and subculture is not true.

If you were there I cede to your witness.
If Ram Dass, though he is very crippled I think he may be alive states different certainly I cede again.

Till then no..;He could not state the guru was taking things he did not know about LSD for legal and other reason.

Case closed.

"[b]Then he held out his hand for the LSD.[/b]...you see he does not elaborate upon how he knew it was LSD he held his hand out for. He has already established he did not know what he wanted and there was a language problem. Earlier in the story.

So no....I reject your contentions without furthur corroboratory evidence by one who was there or Ram Dass himself. Though it was long ago I did indeed here it from the horses mouth(Ram Dass) this story....and you...

you apparently did not. ONly book story is what you recount.

So take your book away. It serves no purpose here.

[Heruka]

Why?

why?

because...

im not playing the man here, so as not to get dragged into making this about personalities, but having read books published in trungpas name, from collected teachings, and maybe the fault of editors and so on, i just have found them a type of buddhist mystisim, i think with the intention of letting the reader infer and ponder for themselves, but with no real clarity of purpose other than to get one to consider buddhism as something mysterious, hence there lays the hook of self discovery and exploration.

i dont care about his drinking, or his zen art or the dress up shambhala theater stuff.

its just not that useful.

i hope that you re-examin the judgemental musings of your post regarding who is a genius and who is trash....i mean where is the ethos of one taste dharma brother?
is it All Good? or just some is better good, and other lesser good?

[Heruka]

Crazy wisdom doesnt look good for practising Buddhists,

i agree, from my perspective its not a very good read, most of trungpas collected teachings are not that clear or useful to students.

Cant say Ive ever read his books but generally I dont pick up works by people who dont keep appropriate morale discipline.

well ok caz, conduct is important, but it can also led to a hard heart when it becomes the only thing, above all else.

bend like a reed in the wind grasshopper!!!

[Heruka]

It isn't a good idea to critique a teacher's actions as "crazy" or otherwise until we have some tiny inkling about emptiness ourselves.

It isn't exactly a normal world out there.

but we are dealing also with a dream provisional truth sphere of karma here as well. since this is where 99% of dharma work is, waking up from the dream requires some ways to purify said karma...i.e with some view to conduct.

[Heruka]

You think then the written word is then the truth of things, that is your contention.
You do realize things are edited by editiors who are not authors for reason of protection of the publishinghouse from legal implication.
And that sometimes authors will change things for purpose legal or other wise.

hello ron, why not just simple plain old sexy sensationalism, i mean who wants to read about a dog biting a man?

[ronnewmexico]

Well I agree with Herukas sentiment...we can only use what we find usefull to us.

Hard to tell with gurus masters spiritual teachers and all. As I perhaps display unintentionally with my most recent discourse, we can find differing interpretations of things that happened even in this time when the peoples are still alive.

So whose to say of hundreds of years ago.
That is a great thing to my opinion...use what is useful for you. If it expands compassion it is working. If not not.

Trungpa or Padmasambhava are your guru...it may be best for you to think of your guru in certain ways that benefit your practice.
Was that the reality of the thing...hard to say, always hard to say.

Ram Dass to my dim recollection had some pressing legal issues at times Heruka. He living just accross the border in Canada in a big old house in the country for those related reasons. I also remember crossing the border going to his house, which was sort of like a little commune, with him holding court to visitors. At the boder was a small hut with a guard of sorts who was probably about 90 years old.
That was border security back in the day

In any event I think I may have recollected right.
Nice to talk to you again.

[Heruka]

That was border security back in the day

well they say it is the darkest, just before the dawn.

[Tilopa]

i hope that you re-examin the judgemental musings of your post regarding who is a genius and who is trash....i mean where is the ethos of one taste dharma brother? is it All Good? or just some is better good, and other lesser good?

I merely expressed a personal opinion and if you don't agree with it that's OK but accusing me of being 'puffed up with pride' for doing so seems a little judgemental itself, don't you think?

And I've never been taught or ever heard a Lama say we should discard our discriminating wisdom just because everything is in the nature of 'one taste'.

Is it all good? If you mean are all teachers,teachings,practices and behaviours acceptable because they're done in the name of dharma and everything is empty anyway so who cares then no, it's not all good.

Here's an interesting quote from the Dalai Lama that I think has some relevance to our discussion.

"I normally recommend to Buddhist practitioners not to see every action of their spiritual teacher as divine and noble. In all of the Buddhist teachings, there are specific, very demanding qualities that are required of a spiritual mentor. If one has a teacher who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, it is appropriate for the students to criticize that behavior.

It says very explicitly in the sutras, in the Buddha's own teachings, that in those aspects were the teacher's behavior is wholesome, you should follow in that teacher's footsteps, but where it is unwholesome, you should not. So when it is incompatible with the wholesome, when it is incompatible with the Buddhist teachings, then you don't follow in the guru's footsteps.

You don't simply say, "It is good behavior because it is the guru's." This is never done. It states explicitly in the sutras that if the guru's behavior is improper, you should identify it as being improper and not follow it. It states explicitly that you should recognize the unwholesome as being unwholesome, so one might infer that it is worthwhile to criticize it. In one text of The Highest Yoga Tantra, it explicitly mentions that any advice that your teacher gives you that is unsuitable to your Buddhist way of life, your practice, should not be followed." ( http://gnostic.org/writings/grapevine/dalaiteachers.htm )

[Karma Dorje]

Well this is a diversion from point, but I will indulge this diversion with appologies to the initial poster and those that have contributed to point..

...<snip much indignant huffing>...

If Ram Dass, though he is very crippled I think he may be alive states different certainly I cede again.
Till then no..;He could not state the guru was taking things he did not know about LSD for legal and other reason.

Case closed.

"[b]Then he held out his hand for the LSD.[/b]...you see he does not elaborate upon how he knew it was LSD he held his hand out for. He has already established he did not know what he wanted and there was a language problem. Earlier in the story.

So no....I reject your contentions without furthur corroboratory evidence by one who was there or Ram Dass himself. Though it was long ago I did indeed here it from the horses mouth(Ram Dass) this story....and you...

you apparently did not. ONly book story is what you recount.

So take your book away. It serves no purpose here.

Apologies to OP for provoking such a lengthy and indignant response when it really should have been a minor segue. I wasn't aware that quoting facts would be so contentious.

Ronnewmexico: If you can't take it from a quote from a book, perhaps you would like to hear it from Ram Dass himself. He has recounted it many times in recordings of his teachings. This particular clip is from 'Fierce Grace'. The story is at 7:06.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkmOdbJnMGw

[ronnewmexico]

This is quite comical....

If you take the time to go through the video you find that this story by Ram Dass differs significantly from that posted earlier from book source...to paraphrase from memory....

Ram Dass now states this: Listen to the video to get the exact words....
The guru inidcated he wanted to take LSD
He Ram Dass did not know if this was wise for such a older person
He(the guru) selected the pills
Ram Dass states one pill would have been enough but nothing happened.
In general terms listen for yourself and see if this is what is earlier written as what happened

Read the first story then listen to this video posted...very different. This I guess is his 09 version.
The version i heard was about 92.

Sorry KD..no brass ring there...try try try again...perhaps you may find a video stateing what you state from written source but this is not it.
What we have identified by clear displayal is that Ram Dases story has changed over the years...that is quite clear. Just listening to the video and reading the written thing shows that.

So you prove my point in a way. Which often happens when obsession presents.
Ram Dass is proven to have a different recount of the same event changing over the years...

So it is quite likely I did hear one version . Many may exist.

No mention is indeed made of slipping his guru anything but now we have his guru chooseing the pills which did not happen earlier...the story has been furthur sanitized it seems.
No mentiion of other pills is made no mention of anything other actually.

So what to make of this...the story changes is what is to be made of this.
So you are wrong KD, your accusation of my fault is mistaken.
I request you withdraw it. I suspect you will not but it is requested.
The facts as you have presented them speak to that...different stories from the same man are present about the same incident.

Nice guy Ram Dass...guru.... that type of guy...not by my take. Compassionate. Very compassionate he will have a fortunate rebirth.

The more I go over even this mundane one event the more it becomes clear to me by the interaction displayal....we have no idea what Trungpa was about or why....different stories of one incident by the inceptor of the event in this case Ram Dass and differing interpretations...

My opinion...if as Heruka states it is useful to you follow Trungpa, or Padmesambhava. If not not. There will never be a end to the stories and the possibility of stories.
I use some of Padmesambhava's tools, Trungpa's not so much. In the interest of full discloseur.

[Virgo]

No mentiion of other pills is made no mention of anything other actually.

LSD does not come in pill form, as far as I know.

Kevin

[ronnewmexico]

Well then take exception to what has been posted as the written words of Ram Dass that KD has listed in his earlier post...."In addition to the LSD there were a number of other pills for this and that--diarrhea, fever."

Other pills infers the LSD was in pill form otherwise it, the other pills, could not be referenced as pills...

It can be in a number of forms. Pills are unusual but not unheard of. Blotter or paper were most common.

I am not proud of this nor find it important in any manner but I am not unknowing of this culture, nor its inhabitants. I have studied it extensively, met some of the major players visited many of the places and corrosponded with others. Though I am close to none of them and know them not but as study for the most part. I had to study it to see if it had substance...mostly it did not, great inspiration little of sustance. No vehicle to follow.
Ken Babbs, Kesey's closest confidant, back in the day is writing a book about the LSD days. Very nice fellow.
He may be corrosponded to on his website, if he is not busy writing his new book.
Keseys son Zane is a very nice fellow....he clued me into the notion america is a nation always in the throws of fear...which I found to be absolutely true.
But I digress...pills is possible I would not call Ram Dass on that. Unlikely but possible, back in the day.

For Ram Dass to change his story over the years for some purpose or other...I would suspect that is quite likely with intention of some sort or other.
Does Ram Dass believe the new story or the older ones....that may be a interesting question. Does he internalize it.
Or is it known. He has after all suffered a life threatening stroke, brought on/occuring when he was envisioning himself as elderly to assist in his writings upon the subject at the time. Several years back.
He still uses psychedalics far as I know. So guru...not for me he is. NIce compassionate person.

I didn't step into this thread with any intention to slam Ram Dass..unfortunately that may have a bit happened. Forced into a corner by aggression I will respond not with venom but with truth which I would rather have as niceness. Truth can be quite painful. But certain experiences I have and not of just the reading sort. Truthful they are I have no motive for falseness. Being nice occasionally I may fault to the side of untruth but not really intentionally.

Kerouac I would slam and do...left his daughter with not a bit of support.Took it to court to the extent of having a blood test to prove paternity...back in the day that was how it was done.....and gave only minimal support never visiting her at all. Not once...she died in albuquerque new mexico subsequent to drug abuse/liver. Spitting image of him she was wrote two books one published about wild rides in albuquerque in part looking for drugs.... the bunch were nice good peoples, some not so nice but inspired... but many faulted in some manner or other.

Osley the king of LSD lives in australia I think some form of cancer now he has last I heard...believes in only eating meat, nothing else....strange.
Back in the day.
Peoples tend to make these into heros of a sort things to be ideolized...they were not, but just people.
Is Trungpa one of them,like them.....I suspect not but some say yes...I don't know.
I think we should fault for the allowance he was not, but will not argue with those that do not...they may have cause.

[ronnewmexico]

What now KD...another video perhaps?

[catmoon]

This thread has been more off topic than on. The original topic was Padmasambhava, not the conduct of Trungpa Rinpoche, and definitely not Baba Ram Dass' adventures with LSD. Please confine the LSD discussions to the Lounge, where threads exist for that sort of thing.

[ronnewmexico]

Point well taken..

On Padmasambhava, I am certainly no scholor but I have heard a differing story or two on this.
The story I heard is that Padmesambhavas killing were really liberations of a sort. Liberations of those involved from a worse fate he may have forseen.

The truth probably I'd guess in the inbetween...as in hard to say.

His teaching I suspect are the meat and bones of the thing not his life story for those of us as westerners or european.
His life story probably is emeshed in the culture of Tibet and their peoples...so it may not make literal sense to us.

That is my on point opinion
To make up for my off point comments