meditation in crowds

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

meditation in crowds

Postby maybay » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:22 pm

I find meditation around complete strangers makes use of the social tension and distractions to actually sober and humble the mind. A sense of direction comes a lot easier than when I'm alone.
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:16 pm

I find that my mind is much less distracted in noisy places than in quiet solitude, as long as I am not involved in the activity around me. I think this is probably because quiet solitude is more of a challenge because there is not as much incoming sensory stimulus, and this forces me to "confront" my own mental activity on a more immediate level.
It also may be due to the fact that I live in a noisy city environment to begin with, so when I go to the woods or out into the country i am distracted by just how nice and quiet it is.
My only real distraction when meditating in a busy area, is thinking that people are going to wonder, "why is that old man just sitting there like that?". Years ago i used to meditate in a local city park, but people would always come up to me and say, "HEY! are you meditating?" so, I stopped doing that.
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:20 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:people would always come up to me and say, "HEY! are you meditating?" so, I stopped doing that.


Hahaha

That's funny I love it.

:rolling:
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:08 pm

Perspective I'd guess...

Searching out elaborate and sublime events of threat, bodily and otherwise seems the way to go at times, and at times not.

Finding all is about the same threat and peacefull situation, it then becomes irrelevent.
But is not that just a mundane thing then?....well the product is the proof, I answer.

As the mind is in threat in peace in activity and nonactivity is as it may be observed to be.
If observed to be interesting,, not blissfull nor happy nor in pain nor sad, but interesting.... I'd say no...most forcefully this is not the mundane thing but a thing apart.

So seeing that all become the meditation. Formal as well as nonformal. Postured as well as not. Posture being in the end a means, the means to enable focus of attention and not a end of itself, as is meditation a means not a end of itself, a means to understand and maintain interest, in what is.

In the end they say one is just hauling water and chopping wood...same as before. Searching for some other devine or blissful water and wood is quite mistaken. As bliss and pain are the same, not differing the slightest bit. So meditation and nonmeditation are the same not differing a bit.

Once I was meditating in a temple and the peoples around me were making a big noise. So they then asked me if their noise was disturbing me.
I said no and thought...;what use a meditation if it be so disturbed. This thing of meditation and view must be strong and deep enough to withstand the visions of the bardo when our lifes breath appears as water to be breated in choking one, and our bodily constituant appears as dirt, smothering and crushing us and other things of even more fear producing.

What use if I be so disturbed by such little things. Running from dogs, hounds of death I must be able to maintain this thing of meditation and view...if not it is quite useless.

So I meditate in whatever I do and how I do it. Walking in the forest a lot, where in five minutes or so I will be. Not that I prefer that place but as
it is here before me.
And my body I use it and listen to it.....die it will I must know what it is saying...that meditation as well,

......

but some may say this is not buddhism....I care not.... I welcome the bardo and will see whose view holds in that place of no view. As surely this place will come.
Perhaps I am the fool. IN this life then I will be that fool, totally and completely foolish to think one may meditate in this fashion.
I can not escape or run from it in this life for it is the rational that leads me to it and holds me there.

Finding I am no longer that cool kid...who sits for hours upon hours in posture, in snow or rain, or storm or bright sun, or in graveyard or in mountain peak, but am that one who just walks and sits and talks and does things or not....am I then not the same?
Some would say forceibly not. MY hair now long not shaved, they say perhaps I am but mundane. I say yes it is true...mundane and devine they are the same.

So meditate in crowds I say and firmly agree...it is a good thing to my opinion. I would do it if one finds it of interest. If not I would not do it.
I go now to the forest...it interests me. If not I would not go there.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby Paul » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:23 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Once I was meditating in a temple and the peoples around me were making a big noise. So they then asked me if their noise was disturbing me.


Dakpo Tashi Namgyal discusses some meditation masters who would slam doors or bang cymbals when their students were meditating to make sure they weren't falling into the state of meditating in the alaya. Also along the same lines Tsoknyi Rinpoche states that if you feel you're being disturbed or being 'brought back' from a state by disturbances you're not practicing dzogchen/mahamudra properly. So I think this is very important.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby mint » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Paul wrote:the state of meditating in the alaya.


Could you please elaborate for me on what this "state of alaya" is? What it feels like?
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:53 pm

mint wrote:
Paul wrote:the state of meditating in the alaya.


Could you please elaborate for me on what this "state of alaya" is? What it feels like?


Sure. From my experience it's best described as being that feeling of absent mindedly staring out of the window. It has a frozen-ness; a kind of rigidity to it. It's very cosy and relaxing, but it's a state that you're stuck in. As if you're latched onto the relaxation. I am not sure if it is exactly identical to 'stupid meditation' that's often taught as being Very Bad, but it's pretty close.

There are teachings, such as in Mipham Rinpoche's "Lamp That Dispells Darkness" that helps a practitioner jump from the alaya to rigpa. As it's a common trap, it seems to be mentioned in many teachings.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby mint » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:05 pm

Paul wrote:
mint wrote:
Paul wrote:the state of meditating in the alaya.


Could you please elaborate for me on what this "state of alaya" is? What it feels like?


Sure. From my experience it's best described as being that feeling of absent mindedly staring out of the window. It has a frozen-ness; a kind of rigidity to it. It's very cosy and relaxing, but it's a state that you're stuck in. As if you're latched onto the relaxation. I am not sure if it is exactly identical to 'stupid meditation' that's often taught as being Very Bad, but it's pretty close.


So, it's sort of like concentration without mindfulness? It's like becoming incredibly absorbed in the concentration?
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:10 pm

mint wrote:So, it's sort of like concentration without mindfulness? It's like becoming incredibly absorbed in the concentration?


It's more like gently resting in paying attention. It's neutral, indifferent, vacant and blank.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby mint » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:43 pm

Paul wrote:
mint wrote:So, it's sort of like concentration without mindfulness? It's like becoming incredibly absorbed in the concentration?


It's more like gently resting in paying attention. It's neutral, indifferent, vacant and blank.


Sounds like the razor's edge! On the one hand, you have absorbed meditation which can easily lead to this state of alaya, and on the other you have a monkey mind on PCP. Given that it is so easy to fall into, I am certain that this has happened to me more than a few times. The vacancy and blankess sound familiar! :lol: I learned my technique from Chogyam Trungpa and Pema Chodron who both advocate becoming one with the breath which naturally leads to an absorbed, relaxed awareness. Though, I have been under the impression from my studies that neutrality, indifference and blankness were all characteristics of openness.

What is the antidote to prevention?

I take, from your example above, that if a loud sound shocks you, this is a sure sign that one had been in a state of alaya?
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby mint » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:15 pm

Paul wrote:There are teachings, such as in Mipham Rinpoche's "Lamp That Dispells Darkness" that helps a practitioner jump from the alaya to rigpa. As it's a common trap, it seems to be mentioned in many teachings.


Is this the same as published in Vol. 3 of The Collected Works of Dilgo Khyentse?

If so, Nangwa is going to come on this thread and say: "Read Dilgo Khyentse." :lol:
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Re: meditation in crowds

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:58 pm

mint wrote:
Paul wrote:
mint wrote:So, it's sort of like concentration without mindfulness? It's like becoming incredibly absorbed in the concentration?


It's more like gently resting in paying attention. It's neutral, indifferent, vacant and blank.


Sounds like the razor's edge! On the one hand, you have absorbed meditation which can easily lead to this state of alaya, and on the other you have a monkey mind on PCP. Given that it is so easy to fall into, I am certain that this has happened to me more than a few times. The vacancy and blankess sound familiar! :lol: I learned my technique from Chogyam Trungpa and Pema Chodron who both advocate becoming one with the breath which naturally leads to an absorbed, relaxed awareness. Though, I have been under the impression from my studies that neutrality, indifference and blankness were all characteristics of openness.


The alaya is actually a very refined mental state. It's just not Dzogchen - which is beyond all mental states.

There is a concept of "similar/same word, but exalted meaning" that is discussed in Mipham's text. The alaya and rigpa can both be called "neutral", but there's a difference in why they're neutral.

What is the antidote to prevention?


The antidote to something depends on the practice that you're doing.

I take, from your example above, that if a loud sound shocks you, this is a sure sign that one had been in a state of alaya?


It depends. If you are being moved out of a mental state, such as resting in the alaya, a loud sound will probably pull you out of it. Since in Mahamudra or Dzogchen it's a different experience, as in what Dakpo Tashi Namgyal mentions.

mint wrote:
Paul wrote:There are teachings, such as in Mipham Rinpoche's "Lamp That Dispells Darkness" that helps a practitioner jump from the alaya to rigpa. As it's a common trap, it seems to be mentioned in many teachings.


Is this the same as published in Vol. 3 of The Collected Works of Dilgo Khyentse?

If so, Nangwa is going to come on this thread and say: "Read Dilgo Khyentse." :lol:


Yes, it's the same text. Read Dilgo Khyentse!
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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