Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

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Jnana
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Jnana »

Caz wrote:I dont think he infected his students with HIV.
Neither did Trungpa.

:focus:
Caz
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Caz »

Jnana wrote:
Caz wrote:I dont think he infected his students with HIV.
Neither did Trungpa.

:focus:
Certainly not the implication was that his actions set the ground for more " Crazy " Behaviour where as a teacher practicing morale discipline would have had less chance of such happening and there would be no justification for its happening either.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Jnana
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Jnana »

Caz wrote:Certainly not the implication was that his actions set the ground for more " Crazy " Behaviour where as a teacher practicing morale discipline would have had less chance of such happening and there would be no justification for its happening either.
Yes, quite likely.

For what it's worth I don't condone that type of conduct either. I generally only support conservative, mainstream Buddhist orthopraxy. In fact, two of my teachers were students of CTR, and both became and remain fully ordained monastics.

All the best,

Geoff
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maybay
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by maybay »

Caz wrote:
Heruka wrote:
Caz wrote:Crazy wisdom doesnt look good for practising Buddhists,

i agree, from my perspective its not a very good read, most of trungpas collected teachings are not that clear or useful to students.
Cant say Ive ever read his books but generally I dont pick up works by people who dont keep appropriate morale discipline.
But you discuss them all the same, and yet what is there to discuss? His actions were clear as daylight.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

It isn't a good idea to critique a teacher's actions as "crazy" or otherwise until we have some tiny inkling about emptiness ourselves.

It isn't exactly a normal world out there.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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maybay
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by maybay »

Paul wrote:something clearly needed at some particular time and space, but not universally applicable.
Trungpa Rinpoche taught fearlessness. What is more applicable than that?
People will know nothing and everything
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Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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Silent Bob
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Silent Bob »

I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
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Virgo
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Virgo »

Look how disturbed peoples minds get when there is the slightest hint that a great master drank alcohol or some other such thing. Clearly an indication that your disturbing emotions have not bee relieved.

Alchohol and sex. For some people this is part and parcel of tantra. What some others can't grasp though is that you only do it when natural, you don't try to go out and live like a Rock Star.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Jinzang »

Silent Bob wrote:I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.
Exactly.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Karma Dorje »

Silent Bob wrote:I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris
Game. Set. Match.
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Caz
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Caz »

Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma if the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Emptiness is not a bunny wabbit. It's not supposed to be "nice".

Image
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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Thug4lyfe
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Thug4lyfe »

Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?
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Chaz
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Chaz »

Food_Eatah wrote:Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?

We don't know. None of us were there. Were you?
Caz
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Caz »

You work with convention to benefit others not against it.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Pero
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Pero »

Caz wrote:Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma. If the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.
Caz wrote: nor do I have the insight to see what is actually benefical
You certainly assume much for someone without insight into what is beneficial. :shrug:

Anyway, I remember someone on E-Sangha in a topic on Trungpa saying something like "Everyone wants to meet a mahasiddha. Then one comes along and decades later people still talk about the scandals." :rolling:
Personally I have the feeling that CTR was perfect for that time. He (or more correctly his behaviour I suppose) probably wouldn't do so well in our time though.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Virgo
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Virgo »

Caz wrote: Buddha would not approve.
It doesn't matter if it puts some people off. Tantra is for the minority, not the majority.

Eating food, drinking alcohol from a cup (I won't say made of what) and having sex are actually part of the practice on the lunar feast day festivals and so forth.

Except in Tibet, it was mostly done is monasteries so the sex was curtailed, at a loss to the tantrikas, of course.

Remember, Buddhism is from India, not Tibet. A lot of Tibetan masters gained realization and did great things for Buddhism. Some screwed it up to a degree also.

Most of the teachings I follow come from people that acted crazy because of realization or made themselves appear to be crazy for various reasons. Padmasambhava, Tsasum Lingpa, Vasabhandu, etc. So there is no fault.

If my Gurus drank alcohol, or did anything else like that, I wouldn't really mind, at all.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Malcolm »

Food_Eatah wrote:Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?

Well, there was the girl who accused the Buddha of getting her pregnant for a starters....
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by Malcolm »

Caz wrote:You work with convention to benefit others not against it.
Tell that to Tilopa.
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Post by conebeckham »

The teacher who subverts conventions, and astounds expectations, can be the best teacher for certain people in certain situations.

Trungpa, in my opinion, was one of those teachers.

Ethics and morality are important for oneself, and as guides for relations with others, sure. We should try our best, though, not to use them as yardsticks to measure others, but ourselves. As Buddhists, we should all know that things are not what they seem--the drunken master may be the genuine master, while the celibate monk in robes may in actuality be the demon.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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