Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

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Jnana
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Jnana » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:06 am

Caz wrote:I dont think he infected his students with HIV.

Neither did Trungpa.

:focus:

Caz
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Caz » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:29 am

Jnana wrote:
Caz wrote:I dont think he infected his students with HIV.

Neither did Trungpa.

:focus:


Certainly not the implication was that his actions set the ground for more " Crazy " Behaviour where as a teacher practicing morale discipline would have had less chance of such happening and there would be no justification for its happening either.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.

Jnana
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Jnana » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:14 am

Caz wrote:Certainly not the implication was that his actions set the ground for more " Crazy " Behaviour where as a teacher practicing morale discipline would have had less chance of such happening and there would be no justification for its happening either.

Yes, quite likely.

For what it's worth I don't condone that type of conduct either. I generally only support conservative, mainstream Buddhist orthopraxy. In fact, two of my teachers were students of CTR, and both became and remain fully ordained monastics.

All the best,

Geoff

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maybay
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby maybay » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:56 pm

Caz wrote:
Heruka wrote:
Caz wrote:Crazy wisdom doesnt look good for practising Buddhists,



i agree, from my perspective its not a very good read, most of trungpas collected teachings are not that clear or useful to students.


Cant say Ive ever read his books but generally I dont pick up works by people who dont keep appropriate morale discipline.


But you discuss them all the same, and yet what is there to discuss? His actions were clear as daylight.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:59 pm

It isn't a good idea to critique a teacher's actions as "crazy" or otherwise until we have some tiny inkling about emptiness ourselves.

It isn't exactly a normal world out there.

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maybay
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby maybay » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Paul wrote:something clearly needed at some particular time and space, but not universally applicable.


Trungpa Rinpoche taught fearlessness. What is more applicable than that?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Silent Bob » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:17 pm

I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris
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Virgo
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Virgo » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:25 pm

Look how disturbed peoples minds get when there is the slightest hint that a great master drank alcohol or some other such thing. Clearly an indication that your disturbing emotions have not bee relieved.

Alchohol and sex. For some people this is part and parcel of tantra. What some others can't grasp though is that you only do it when natural, you don't try to go out and live like a Rock Star.
Kevin

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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Jinzang » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:44 pm

Silent Bob wrote:I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.


Exactly.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dorje » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:50 pm

Silent Bob wrote:I've noticed over the years that those who are most vocal in their condemnation of Trungpa Rinpoche were never even in the same room with him.

Chris


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Caz
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Caz » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:00 pm

Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma if the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.

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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Emptiness is not a bunny wabbit. It's not supposed to be "nice".

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Thug4lyfe
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Thug4lyfe » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:33 pm

Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Chaz » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:45 pm

Food_Eatah wrote:Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?



We don't know. None of us were there. Were you?

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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Caz » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:48 pm

You work with convention to benefit others not against it.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.

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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Pero » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:54 pm

Caz wrote:Buddha taught the path of morale discipline this applies to both Sutra and Tantra you keep appropriate behaviour to benefit others and help them develop faith in the teacher and the Dharma. If the teacher engages in what appears to be degenerate activity regardless of their intention it doesnt come off well. Buddha would not approve.


Caz wrote:nor do I have the insight to see what is actually benefical


You certainly assume much for someone without insight into what is beneficial. :shrug:

Anyway, I remember someone on E-Sangha in a topic on Trungpa saying something like "Everyone wants to meet a mahasiddha. Then one comes along and decades later people still talk about the scandals." :rolling:
Personally I have the feeling that CTR was perfect for that time. He (or more correctly his behaviour I suppose) probably wouldn't do so well in our time though.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Virgo
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Virgo » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:23 pm

Caz wrote: Buddha would not approve.


It doesn't matter if it puts some people off. Tantra is for the minority, not the majority.

Eating food, drinking alcohol from a cup (I won't say made of what) and having sex are actually part of the practice on the lunar feast day festivals and so forth.

Except in Tibet, it was mostly done is monasteries so the sex was curtailed, at a loss to the tantrikas, of course.

Remember, Buddhism is from India, not Tibet. A lot of Tibetan masters gained realization and did great things for Buddhism. Some screwed it up to a degree also.

Most of the teachings I follow come from people that acted crazy because of realization or made themselves appear to be crazy for various reasons. Padmasambhava, Tsasum Lingpa, Vasabhandu, etc. So there is no fault.

If my Gurus drank alcohol, or did anything else like that, I wouldn't really mind, at all.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:03 am

Food_Eatah wrote:Now, no one here has been in the same room with the Buddha. Yet where are all the scandals involving him?



Well, there was the girl who accused the Buddha of getting her pregnant for a starters....
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Malcolm
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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:04 am

Caz wrote:You work with convention to benefit others not against it.


Tell that to Tilopa.
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Buddhahood in This Life
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

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Re: Trungpa Rinpoche's "Crazy Wisdom": Padmasambhava's Crime

Postby conebeckham » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:04 am

The teacher who subverts conventions, and astounds expectations, can be the best teacher for certain people in certain situations.

Trungpa, in my opinion, was one of those teachers.

Ethics and morality are important for oneself, and as guides for relations with others, sure. We should try our best, though, not to use them as yardsticks to measure others, but ourselves. As Buddhists, we should all know that things are not what they seem--the drunken master may be the genuine master, while the celibate monk in robes may in actuality be the demon.
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