Kayas

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Kayas

Postby sangyey » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:23 pm

Are the Kayas only spoken of in Vajrayana or are they also spoken of in common Mahayana that might also be found in other traditions?
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Re: Kayas

Postby Josef » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:25 pm

Mahayana on up.
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Re: Kayas

Postby sangyey » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:27 pm

Thank you.

Any references in the Sutras?

Perhaps it's the five wisdoms that are spoken of only in Vajrayana?
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Re: Kayas

Postby Paul » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:37 pm

¥ou also get the notion of dhammakaya in Theravada Buddhism.

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Agganna_Sutta


"Vasettha, all of you, through of different birth, name, clan and family, who have gone forth from the household life into homelessness, if you are asked who you are, should reply: 'We are ascetics, followers of the Sakyan.' He whose faith in the Tathagata is settled, rooted, established, solid, unshakeable by any ascetic or Brahmin, any deva or mara or Brahma or anyone in the world, can truly say: 'I am a true son of Blessed Lord, born of his mouth, born of Dhamma, created by Dhamma, an heir of Dhamma.' Why is that? Because, Vasettha, this designates the Tathagata: 'The body of Dhamma', that is, 'The body of Brahma', or 'Become Dhamma', that is, 'Become Brahma'.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Kayas

Postby sangyey » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:45 pm

I was thinking about that to. I used to have a pamphlet from the local Thai Temple and on the front of it they had all these various stages. I remember the top picture as being something like Dhammakaya (not exactly sure) and the other stages like Sottapan below it. If you haven't eliminated the cognitive obscuration would it still be considered Dharmakaya?
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Re: Kayas

Postby Virgo » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:17 am

sangyey wrote:I was thinking about that to. I used to have a pamphlet from the local Thai Temple and on the front of it they had all these various stages. I remember the top picture as being something like Dhammakaya (not exactly sure) and the other stages like Sottapan below it. If you haven't eliminated the cognitive obscuration would it still be considered Dharmakaya?

No. The pamphlet you had was probably from the Dhammakaya sect. Is that the case? They base those ideas on the teachings of a Thai gentleman, not on Pali Suttas.

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Re: Kayas

Postby Jnana » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:20 am

sangyey wrote:Any references in the Sutras?

They're mentioned in some sūtras, but become standardized in the Yogācāra treatises and their commentaries. A good English language survey of the relevant materials is Buddhahood Embodied by John Makransky.

sangyey wrote:Perhaps it's the five wisdoms that are spoken of only in Vajrayana?

The five wisdoms were first formulated as the four wisdoms in the Yogācāra treatises.

All the best,

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Re: Kayas

Postby sangyey » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:57 am

Hey Virgo, I'm not exactly sure what sect. Here is the web address

http://www.watphila.iirt.net/index1.html

I believe they do follow teachings from a main teacher ( whose picture is found on the main site but has passed away some time ago I believe ) and practice Shamatha/Vipassana by using a crystal ball as the object and bases of the mind.

Jnana, I am curios what wisdom was not present in the initial teachings on the four wisdoms that was later added making five?
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Re: Kayas

Postby Virgo » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:02 am

sangyey wrote:and practice Shamatha/Vipassana by using a crystal ball as the object and bases of the mind.


Dhammakaya.

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Re: Kayas

Postby Jnana » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:36 am

sangyey wrote:Jnana, I am curios what wisdom was not present in the initial teachings on the four wisdoms that was later added making five?

One of the main early Indian sources for the four wisdoms is the Mahāyānasūtrālaṃkāra Chapter 9, vv. 67-76, and it's commentary & sub-commentaries. The early sūtrayāna list of four wisdoms is:

  • mirror-like wisdom (ādarśajñāna)
  • wisdom of equality (samatājñāna)
  • discriminating wisdom (pratyavekṣanājñāna)
  • all-accomplishing wisdom (kṛtyānuṣṭhānajñāna)

The wisdom of the dharmadhātu (dharmadhātujñāna) was then added to make five.
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