Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:51 pm

Nangwa wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Btw, I just found our favorite website again while Googling thogal:

http://www.buddhabrats.com/glossary/thogal

:smile:

Thats a really shitty definition.


Figured it would be. That website is really shitty!
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:54 pm

Nangwa wrote:
padma norbu wrote: I don't think it's strange that someone would want to know what this thing people keep talking about is. Whatever it is, I have missed from the books everyone else read.

If you dont read Tibetan there is actually very little on it available.
People can read what is out there and think "oh, i know what this is now", but they are really just fooling themselves.
In my experience the things you read about thogal before having it taught to you directly are pretty useless.


That's what I've gathered. I really don't intend to read some doctoral dissertations on a tantra and then go practice thogal. I have no interest in trying to practice it unless I am able to take a retreat and it seems like a practice I can actually do. From what little I know about it, it's an end stage type practice and one which Namkhai Norbu didn't practice for a very long time until he had some dream confirmation that he should begin to practice. Just curious what it's all about. It's the only practice that has to do with light that I'm aware of and Sonam and a few others keep talking about "the light," as I said. I'd like to know something about what the hell they're talking about is all.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Virgo » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:09 pm

It's like when you see a light that isn't really there. For example, you close your eyelids and you "see" lights even though your eyes are closed. This light appears to be real, but it is just experienced by the mind, not the visual consciousness, as their is no actual physical light there seen by the eye. This shows you that all that arises is just manifestations of energy. You work on this level in Thogal. But first, we need to be experienced with other Dzogchen practices.

But there are various things, postures, working with light, sound, and other things too.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:30 pm

If you read the final testaments of masters like in the early Nyingma Dzogchen lineage holders or in final statements of the masters of the zhang zhung nyan gyud, you will not ready anything about postures, gazes or preliminaries. You will read about resting in rigpa, and utilizing channels and winds. Only one final testament mentions sound, lights and rays, and these are presented as naturally occuring, and that whatever visions arise, in whichever manner or order, be they bindus, deities or anything else, you remain in rigpa. Such that trekcho and thodgal are just explanations pertaining to one practice; they are not two separate practices. You don't need 24/hr trekcho before going to thodgal. You need both practices, but clearly when you are not doing sitting practice, bindus, etc., will not arise, but you mix understanding of thodgal with ordinary conditioned appearances so that one's naturally occurring compassion will burst forth spontaneously.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Sönam » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:50 pm

deepbluehum wrote:If you read the final testaments of masters like in the early Nyingma Dzogchen lineage holders or in final statements of the masters of the zhang zhung nyan gyud, you will not ready anything about postures, gazes or preliminaries. You will read about resting in rigpa, and utilizing channels and winds. Only one final testament mentions sound, lights and rays, and these are presented as naturally occuring, and that whatever visions arise, in whichever manner or order, be they bindus, deities or anything else, you remain in rigpa. Such that trekcho and thodgal are just explanations pertaining to one practice; they are not two separate practices. You don't need 24/hr trekcho before going to thodgal. You need both practices, but clearly when you are not doing sitting practice, bindus, etc., will not arise, but you mix understanding of thodgal with ordinary conditioned appearances so that one's naturally occurring compassion will burst forth spontaneously.


good view ...

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:04 pm

Interesting last couple of posts. Thanks, Virgo and deepbluehum. As I mentioned before, when I sing SoV, I see light specks like crazy, but I never thought much of it. Occasionally, they have been so prevalent that my vision is practically blinded by light splotches. I just attributed this to some response of my eye being frozen.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:33 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Well, actually, the English translation of Heart Drops of Dharmakaya is missing the Rushen practice of purifying the Six Lokas which I believe is related to Longsal.


Purifying the seeds of the six lokas is part of all Buddhist khorde rushen practices, not just Namkhai Norbu's Longsal. Instructions for this practice differ in minor ways in the various systems, but it's almost always basically the same thing essentially. I believe one of Norbu Rinpoche's versions of this practice, however, is unique in that it combines Vajrasattva practice with the purification of the six lokas. On the other hand, I've received pith instructions from one of my other lamas on how to combine purification of the seeds of the six lokas with various Yidams in a very similar way.


Thanks. That explains why Longsal is not mentioned in the above link to the brief description of this Rushen found on Tenzin wangyal Rinpoche's website.

There's also a discussion about the Rushen preliminaries in this thread:

The Rushen Preliminaries of Bönpo Dzogchen


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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Inge » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:45 pm

heart wrote:
Inge wrote:Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?

Can tögal be a complete path?

In the non-restricted Vivid Awareness, there are tögal instructions where one are using hearing to listen to inner sound visions, and this seems to be the same as the method that Avalokiteshvara used to gain enlightenment according to the Chinese Shurangama sutra. Is it possible that this sutra contains tögal instructions? I remember once reading that Erik Pema Kunsang said this sutra was like one long pointing out instruction. Anyway do you think it is beneficial and non-dangerous for me to do such listening practice?


Send a email to Thrangu Rinpoche and ask him.

/magnus

Do you know his email address, or do you know where I can find it?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Inge » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:02 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Inge wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Don't you have a teacher to ask these questions? No teacher, no Dzogchen. :shrug:

I try to follow the teachings of ChNN, but he is not available for me to ask questions at the moment.

Sometimes in the teachings I have listened to he briefly explains some aspects of thogal, but I am unsure if this is sufficient for me to actually do this practice.


One must have removed all doubts about one's rigpa and have stability in trekchod before togal is even applicable. Otherwise, even if one were to learn the postures and gazes and so on, and even if one did begin to see something, one would be powerless to keep from intellectualizing and subtly grasping to one's perceptions - this is said in the Dzogchen practice manuals (triyik) to create a profound hindrance to fully realizing Dzogchen.

Much better (in my opinion, and according to the triyik's I've received transmission for, teachings from, and which I've read) is to thoroughly practice the khorde rushen practices (separating samsara and nirvana) within the context of guru yoga for as long as the texts/traditions/your guru prescribe, and then follow that with speaking with your lama (some way, somehow, if not in person) and explain what you think rigpa means...

Once your lama confirms you're hitting the mark, you can focus on gaining proficiency and stability in trekchod. Once you feel like you've got that, then speak to your lama again and see if you're ready for togal. Once you are, then practice togal as diligently as you can and realize Buddhahood in this lifetime.


Thanks Pema Rigdzin. This seems like a reasonable approach. But I wonder if it is the only approach? I don't remember hearing ChNN say that khorde rushen is nescessary. Not while I have listened at least. Sometimes I hear him mention the differnt methods available to use if one does not recognize during transmission though.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby palchi » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:06 pm

Inge wrote:
heart wrote:
Inge wrote:Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?

Can tögal be a complete path?

In the non-restricted Vivid Awareness, there are tögal instructions where one are using hearing to listen to inner sound visions, and this seems to be the same as the method that Avalokiteshvara used to gain enlightenment according to the Chinese Shurangama sutra. Is it possible that this sutra contains tögal instructions? I remember once reading that Erik Pema Kunsang said this sutra was like one long pointing out instruction. Anyway do you think it is beneficial and non-dangerous for me to do such listening practice?


Send a email to Thrangu Rinpoche and ask him.

/magnus

Do you know his email address, or do you know where I can find it?


There's an email address at the bottom of his website: http://www.rinpoche.com/
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Inge » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:15 pm

palchi wrote:
Inge wrote:
heart wrote:
Send a email to Thrangu Rinpoche and ask him.

/magnus

Do you know his email address, or do you know where I can find it?


There's an email address at the bottom of his website: http://www.rinpoche.com/

I see a rotating email image, but clicking it does not get me anywhere.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Josef » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:25 pm

Inge wrote:
Thanks Pema Rigdzin. This seems like a reasonable approach. But I wonder if it is the only approach? I don't remember hearing ChNN say that khorde rushen is nescessary. Not while I have listened at least. Sometimes I hear him mention the differnt methods available to use if one does not recognize during transmission though.

Its not the only approach. Korde Rushen is a bit less rigid than other preliminaries. A lot of it is based on the signs and the practices themselves.
Either way, you wouldnt spend years on rushen. Usually they can be done pretty quickly.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby palchi » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:28 pm

Inge wrote:]
I see a rotating email image, but clicking it does not get me anywhere.


For me it opens my email programme. Email address is rinpoche.com (at) gmail.com
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Silent Bob » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:40 pm

Inge wrote:
heart wrote:
Send a email to Thrangu Rinpoche and ask him.

/magnus

Do you know his email address, or do you know where I can find it?



Great idea, Magnus!!! :rolleye: , and btw, Inge, the email address at the bottom of Rinpoche's website will only take you to a server in Southern California. Given that Thrangu Rinpoche is old and increasingly frail, has thousands of people all wanting something from him and that you're not his student, the more courteous and considerate approach would be to email your question to him c/o his secretary, Gloria Jones, whose email address can be found at the bottom of the 'schedule' page on the rinpoche.com website, and let her pass it on to him. I'm just sayin'...

Chris
Last edited by Silent Bob on Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:50 pm

Well believe it or not I'm walking on air. I never thought I would feel so free.

Greatest American Hero. Ha ha. Well I have to say there are many paths to the bindus. But I have to say with all due deference and reverence to the great teachers of our times, the path of spending inordinate time "stabilizing tregcho" is not necessary. Trekcho is not technically path to stabilize. It is in the manner of sit like this and relax like this combined will a little view. It is the Thodgal path burns the obscurations, that is its power. Thrkcho/Thodgal together stabilizes the view is the point. There's not really two paths here. This separation, in my not so important opinion, is useless and a waste of time. But that's just me. It helps if you can have personal interaction with a master of vajra samadhi, unbroken continuation in the view, then you can just based on that relationship begin to intuit and put rigpa to use. Personal contact makes the case simple. At the very least you need to get a sound working knowledge of the meaning of rigpa and the realization of buddha in conventional language terms, with respect to 9 yanas. Then the Clear Light path is just that, clear.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:42 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Well believe it or not I'm walking on air. I never thought I would feel so free.

Greatest American Hero. Ha ha. Well I have to say there are many paths to the bindus. But I have to say with all due deference and reverence to the great teachers of our times, the path of spending inordinate time "stabilizing tregcho" is not necessary. Trekcho is not technically path to stabilize. It is in the manner of sit like this and relax like this combined will a little view. It is the Thodgal path burns the obscurations, that is its power. Thrkcho/Thodgal together stabilizes the view is the point. There's not really two paths here. This separation, in my not so important opinion, is useless and a waste of time. But that's just me. It helps if you can have personal interaction with a master of vajra samadhi, unbroken continuation in the view, then you can just based on that relationship begin to intuit and put rigpa to use. Personal contact makes the case simple. At the very least you need to get a sound working knowledge of the meaning of rigpa and the realization of buddha in conventional language terms, with respect to 9 yanas. Then the Clear Light path is just that, clear.


I have to say I am getting some serious strange vibes here deepbluehum, what you say don't sound like Dzogchen at all to me.

/magnus
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:35 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Well believe it or not I'm walking on air. I never thought I would feel so free.

Greatest American Hero. Ha ha. Well I have to say there are many paths to the bindus. But I have to say with all due deference and reverence to the great teachers of our times, the path of spending inordinate time "stabilizing tregcho" is not necessary. Trekcho is not technically path to stabilize. It is in the manner of sit like this and relax like this combined will a little view. It is the Thodgal path burns the obscurations, that is its power. Thrkcho/Thodgal together stabilizes the view is the point. There's not really two paths here. This separation, in my not so important opinion, is useless and a waste of time. But that's just me. It helps if you can have personal interaction with a master of vajra samadhi, unbroken continuation in the view, then you can just based on that relationship begin to intuit and put rigpa to use. Personal contact makes the case simple. At the very least you need to get a sound working knowledge of the meaning of rigpa and the realization of buddha in conventional language terms, with respect to 9 yanas. Then the Clear Light path is just that, clear.


I have to say I am getting some serious strange vibes here deepbluehum, what you say don't sound like Dzogchen at all to me.

/magnus


Ha ha ha. That is just my minority report. Carry on.

P.S. A lot of what I have is not standard mainstream.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:11 am

So who is this "master of vajra samadhi" that you say you interact with?

/magnus
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:29 pm

For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.

There was no empowerment. Rinpoche did only the very simplest of introductions during the first session and has spent the last three days explaining how to do this practice very thoroughly through all four visions, how to recognize them, how to develop them and the signs of attaining each one.

Namo Guru Bhyah!

He also explained very carefully why and how Dzogchen is a separate vehicle; how and why it is also related to Vajrayāna; and how and why Dzogchen does not need to depend on the methods common to Vajrayāna. He also explained why people should not be averse to the methods of Vajrayāna and why they are useful and important. All in all a balanced presentation.

He also clearly explained the principle of rainbow body and great transference body similarities and differences.

Tenerife is awesome.

N




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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.

There was no empowerment. Rinpoche did only the very simplest of introductions during the first session and has spent the last three days explaining how to do this practice very thoroughly through all four visions, how to recognize them, how to develop them and the signs of attaining each one.

Namo Guru Bhyah!

He also explained very carefully why and how Dzogchen is a separate vehicle; how and why it is also related to Vajrayāna; and how and why Dzogchen does not need to depend on the methods common to Vajrayāna. He also explained why people should not be averse to the methods of Vajrayāna and why they are useful and important. All in all a balanced presentation.

He also clearly explained the principle of rainbow body and great transference body similarities and differences.

Tenerife is awesome.

N



I was wondering if you were in Teneriffe. I am happy that you are, it sounds awesome. Have a great trip home or wherever you are going.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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