Killing Insects and Buddhism

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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:10 pm

cooran wrote:
Kai wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello all,

What are the karmic results of deliberately killing insects?



Just like the normal karmic effect coming from unwholesome action of killing combined with having ill will or aversion;

Illness, disability and short life in the next rebirth, born in war zone area, unattractive, lots of enemies, etc........


Thanks Kai. Though I'm not sure many people in this thread accept or believe the Teachings on this matter - as they write about intentionally killing other beings frequently.


Accept and beleive. Also, one must keep in mind that a karmic act is perfect only if you are happy about it.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:56 pm

Tilopa wrote:
Ryoto wrote: The other day I had mice in my house who were leaving crap everywhere and chewing into packaged foods so I got these glue traps which caught 3 of them in one night. They will die a slow death but it had to be done.


It didn't have to be done like that. There are other ways of catching mice that don't involve killing:

http://members.aceweb.com/patrussell/mo ... setrap.htm

That's cool, we have mice in our house too and I was thinking if there was another way instead of killing them. The thing is though, it is not a complete solution. What do you do with the mice? Throwing them out is no solution IMO, they'll just come back.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Epistemes » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:57 pm

Pero wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
Ryoto wrote: The other day I had mice in my house who were leaving crap everywhere and chewing into packaged foods so I got these glue traps which caught 3 of them in one night. They will die a slow death but it had to be done.


It didn't have to be done like that. There are other ways of catching mice that don't involve killing:

http://members.aceweb.com/patrussell/mo ... setrap.htm

That's cool, we have mice in our house too and I was thinking if there was another way instead of killing them. The thing is though, it is not a complete solution. What do you do with the mice? Throwing them out is no solution IMO, they'll just come back.


We've captured squirrels before in a cage, driven a few miles away, then let them out.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Nighthawk » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:41 pm

Thinking about this thread made me save a lady bug today.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:07 am

Epistemes wrote:
Pero wrote:
Tilopa wrote:It didn't have to be done like that. There are other ways of catching mice that don't involve killing:

http://members.aceweb.com/patrussell/mo ... setrap.htm

That's cool, we have mice in our house too and I was thinking if there was another way instead of killing them. The thing is though, it is not a complete solution. What do you do with the mice? Throwing them out is no solution IMO, they'll just come back.


We've captured squirrels before in a cage, driven a few miles away, then let them out.

Hm yeah, I suppose I could drive them to the forest nearby.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby edearl » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:57 pm

Pero wrote:
Epistemes wrote:...
We've captured squirrels before in a cage, driven a few miles away, then let them out.

Hm yeah, I suppose I could drive them to the forest nearby.


A house mice may not be able to survive in a forest, they have adapted to living with humans and in open fields, according to Wikipedia.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Tamangi » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:53 am

I was once told (by a Sangha) that it best if you have to kill the once cockroach/insect rather than wait for them to multiply and have to kill many.


I also kill insects in my home if they are a danger to my children such as spiders and other biting things. Not saying this is the right thing to do, just saying that is what I do
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby edearl » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:17 am

Tamangi wrote:I was once told (by a Sangha) that it best if you have to kill the once cockroach/insect rather than wait for them to multiply and have to kill many.


I also kill insects in my home if they are a danger to my children such as spiders and other biting things. Not saying this is the right thing to do, just saying that is what I do


A pet mouse or hamster is good for eating insects in one's house, but that cannot be caged. :lol:
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:03 pm

Pero wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
Ryoto wrote: The other day I had mice in my house who were leaving crap everywhere and chewing into packaged foods so I got these glue traps which caught 3 of them in one night. They will die a slow death but it had to be done.


It didn't have to be done like that. There are other ways of catching mice that don't involve killing:

http://members.aceweb.com/patrussell/mo ... setrap.htm

That's cool, we have mice in our house too and I was thinking if there was another way instead of killing them. The thing is though, it is not a complete solution. What do you do with the mice? Throwing them out is no solution IMO, they'll just come back.



You have to drive them about 3 miles away from your house. Preferably across a stream. That is what I do.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 pm

edearl wrote:
Pero wrote:
Epistemes wrote:...
We've captured squirrels before in a cage, driven a few miles away, then let them out.

Hm yeah, I suppose I could drive them to the forest nearby.


A house mice may not be able to survive in a forest, they have adapted to living with humans and in open fields, according to Wikipedia.


This is an example of where Wiki and reality do not meet. The mice we have in our house _are_ field mice.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:
ananda wrote:Since insects are ignorant of morality and we humans are the higher form of life then shouldn't we practice ahimsa towards even household flies and pests despite the problems they create for us ?


Up until the point that they become a problem like spreading disease, ruining our food and so on. That being said, I have not knowingly killed a single creature on purpose since I became a Buddhist 25 years ago.

However, if my house were infested with carpenter ants, for example, and so on, I would exterminate them, even though I would feel bad about it.

N


It's wild, isn't it? In one fell swoop you'd be responsible for killing thousands more beings than you went out of your way not to kill for 25 years. It sucks, but I'd do the same thing and probably try to do some type of ritual to get rid of them first a few times first and then, if that failed, extermination + some sort of ritual to hopefully send them to a higher rebirth.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby edearl » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:19 pm

Namdrol wrote:[quote="edearl"
...
A house mice may not be able to survive in a forest, they have adapted to living with humans and in open fields, according to Wikipedia.


This is an example of where Wiki and reality do not meet. The mice we have in our house _are_ field mice.

N[/quote]

I checked some additional sources.
According to http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm the long tailed field mouse never lives in houses.
According to http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7483.html house mice do live in fields.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby edearl » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:22 pm

edearl wrote:
Namdrol wrote:[quote="edearl"
...
A house mice may not be able to survive in a forest, they have adapted to living with humans and in open fields, according to Wikipedia.


This is an example of where Wiki and reality do not meet. The mice we have in our house _are_ field mice.

N


I checked some additional sources.
According to http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm the long tailed field mouse never lives in houses.
According to http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7483.html house mice do live in fields.[/quote]
But, both field mice and house mice will do better in a field than in the forest.
HHDL: "My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:41 pm

edearl wrote:
edearl wrote:
Namdrol wrote:[quote="edearl"
...
A house mice may not be able to survive in a forest, they have adapted to living with humans and in open fields, according to Wikipedia.


This is an example of where Wiki and reality do not meet. The mice we have in our house _are_ field mice.

N


I checked some additional sources.
According to http://faculty.njcu.edu/fmoran/vol4fieldmouse.htm the long tailed field mouse never lives in houses.



They should come to my attic, then. They will understand something different.

N
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Silent Bob » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:52 pm

"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Virgo » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:45 pm

Have-a-hart traps are great (but I am sure you know this). When I lived in an old farm house we used to get mice a lot, especially in the mud room where the wood pile was. A great way to catch them is with a smaller size bucket, just big enough so they cannot climb out. Lean a paint mixing stick on it, one side touching the ground and the other going up to the opening at the top of the bucket, creating a ramp. Put some peanutbutter on the top part so they climb up. Then they see-saw into the bucket and can't get out. Cheap, easy, free.

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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:12 am

Just make sure that the action of not killing animals because of an infestation doesn't ruin your chances to practice. If pests make you seriously ill or wreck your house apart, you may find yourself in a situation in which you have your practice ruined. Not all have the possibility to buy a new home or the strength to recover from serious illnesses. So it's a matter of balancing pros and cons. By saving those animals, you will be providing relative benefit. They'll keep doing their business and next life they'll probably still crawl. By practicing hard, vowing to help all those beings to attain liberation, there's a chance one day you will able to fulfill your promise. We are only having this discussion because I assume you intent to practice hard. Otherwise you wouldn't even care. It's regrettable to kill any sentient being, for whatever reason, but not all can live in a cave with only survival conditions. Most would go nuts after a while. So, my suggestion would be first protecting your health and home so that you have the conditions to keep practicing. You, being a human, have a great potentiality to help other beings. Bugs and pests don't. This doesn't mean you need to fell good about getting rid of them if necessary.

About the occasional mosquito... they tend to land when you turn lights on. A glass and a sheet of paper usually are good tools to throw them out of the window. If you are kind enough to support a little itchiness and live in an area where you won't catch malaria or something, you can simply tolerate them. That's what I usually do. And centipedes too, but those I have to catch with the above mentioned tools as my wife is afraid of the little buggers. I never had mice, but the idea of killing them disgusts me. I can understand that sometimes people need to call the exterminator if they have a large infestation. Their flees were responsible for the dissemination of the black plague after all. I guess in the end it boils down to your true intention and skills. Do you have other viable option? If so, never take a life. Just be sure you've pondered all the scenarios and your own capacities to endure hardship, I guess.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby kvakamak » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:52 pm

I think human beign should not kill any animal even small insects which are causing harms to humans but if it is really question of life and death one should use his wisdom and try to do his best to avoid killing and when all this is useless then no other choice than kill but I dont know in the modern western world any kind of this situation because all the deadly deseases were destroyed I think.

Sometimes i am very sad off diging the earth because of many worms and small creatures have to be killed but not counsciously ... but then, what you can do in the nature or in the garden ? nothing ... hmmm ?

Thank you

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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:25 pm

kvakamak wrote:I think human beign should not kill any animal even small insects which are causing harms to humans but if it is really question of life and death one should use his wisdom and try to do his best to avoid killing and when all this is useless then no other choice than kill but I dont know in the modern western world any kind of this situation because all the deadly deseases were destroyed I think.

Sometimes i am very sad off diging the earth because of many worms and small creatures have to be killed but not counsciously ... but then, what you can do in the nature or in the garden ? nothing ... hmmm ?

Thank you

Kvakamak

Concerning the above sentence in bold (by me), it's important to know that there are small outbreaks here and there of really nasty diseases, now and then. If I'm not mistaken, the only disease that seems to have been completely eradicated is smallpox, or so we hope since it still exists in labs and, probably, in the form of bio-weapons. But as the propagation of these diseases is made hard because of the cleaner conditions we live in, they don't grow to uncontrollable proportions, even when vaccination vigilance weakens. This has a cost and small animals pay the price for us to live under such conditions. We are a specie that needs resources. When we grow in numbers due to factors as the above mentioned, other species pay the price for our well being, even if we try to go as green as we can.
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Re: Killing Insects and Buddhism

Postby edearl » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:06 pm

See: http://www.cartercenter.org/health/itfde/who.html for diseases being eliminated or eradicated by the W.H.O.
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