Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Master-student is often misunderstood. The idea about appearances is easy rejected.
Bodhichitta.
To avoid "people" get discouraged, lose trust, run in idea, in percieving thoughts, to give full opportunity, check experience....to ensure awakening as dream about cannot awaken...
Thinking thought don't know.
*BODHICHITTA*
Bodhichitta.
To avoid "people" get discouraged, lose trust, run in idea, in percieving thoughts, to give full opportunity, check experience....to ensure awakening as dream about cannot awaken...
Thinking thought don't know.
*BODHICHITTA*
“We are each living in our own soap opera. We do not see things as they really are. We see only our interpretations. This is because our minds are always so busy...But when the mind calms down, it becomes clear. This mental clarity enables us to see things as they really are, instead of projecting our commentary on everything.” Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bg9jOYnEUA
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
dont know is as natural as know! you cannot ever leave your natural state and so not knowing is only part of the natural state.
how can you attain what comes naturally to you... pointless.
relax!
how can you attain what comes naturally to you... pointless.
relax!
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
- Pastabodhi
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Sure! They call it : new age.Sönam wrote:may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?
Sönam
Just a big waste of time.
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
this is an opinion, Dzogchen better recommend openness ... it always has been such type of opinion, We use to call it old agePastabodhi wrote:Sure! They call it : new age.Sönam wrote:may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?
Sönam
Just a big waste of time.
Sönam
In essential reality, which lacks all bias and partiality,
view, empowerment, mandala and mantra-recitation are absent,
and levels, paths, commitment, training and progress are unimaged;
all are wide open, unfounded, boundless vastness,
everything embraced by pure-mind reality.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
- Pastabodhi
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:58 pm
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Dzogchen better recommend a real Guru. "Guru" stands for: guru-disciple relationship.
- Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
It's a weird position to take especially for an experienced practitioner. If I want to learn piano or karate how can I really do that from a book? I need a teacher.Sönam wrote:this is an opinion, Dzogchen better recommend openness ... it always has been such type of opinion, We use to call it old age
Sönam
In essential reality, which lacks all bias and partiality,
view, empowerment, mandala and mantra-recitation are absent,
and levels, paths, commitment, training and progress are unimaged;
all are wide open, unfounded, boundless vastness,
everything embraced by pure-mind reality.
- Longchen Rabjam -
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
I was anwering to our friend Pastabodhi, who apparently did'nt took time to read all what I wrote ...
If you follow the discussion post after post, you certainly would'nt found that so weird ... what is often more weird is the antique chorus repeating, without real self understanding, words just like a motto.
as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
Sönam
and that's why I cited Longchen RabjamSönam wrote:I do not disagree on the advantage of the master in descovering our true nature ... I simply disagree with those that repeat automatically that same litany, "you cannot discover ..." how do they know if they simply think so?
Sönam
If you follow the discussion post after post, you certainly would'nt found that so weird ... what is often more weird is the antique chorus repeating, without real self understanding, words just like a motto.
as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
- Karma Dondrup Tashi
- Posts: 1715
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
What happens to direct introduction in this scenario?Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
This I think refers to the other practiced mentioned above your quote in the text, as the next sentence states: "In contrast to these other practices, Khenpo Gangshar's instructions are concise and easy to follow."Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
You may be right. I just re-read a transcript of his teachings in Vancouver, 9/2008, where Rinpoche gave more complete instructions on togal and he didn't say anything about "difficulties and problems".Inge wrote:This I think refers to the other practiced mentioned above your quote in the text, as the next sentence states: "In contrast to these other practices, Khenpo Gangshar's instructions are concise and easy to follow."Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
- padma norbu
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
fax me that transcript, would ye?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
"Restricted Distribution"
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
you've passed the test. now, it is okay to fax it to me.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
?? ... it's your own comparison, "If I want to learn piano or karate how can I really do that from a book? I need a teacher"Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:What happens to direct introduction in this scenario?Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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- Location: Southern Oregon
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
It's helpful, but not necessarily even needed. Apparently, one fine day one may just spontaneously glimpse the true nature of primordial guitar chops and become one bad-ass guitar player. Not sure if one recognizes knowledge of one's natural state, let alone attains stability in it, though... which is a bummer.Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:What happens to direct introduction in this scenario?Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
many intelligent peoples those days, having right opinions ... they know a lot! thank's for their unlightened views.
Sönam
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
Really, are we limited to one life only?Sönam wrote:as an exemple, Django Reinhardt did prove it's also possible without a teacher ...
Well also Buddha Shakyamuni proved it's possible without a teacher (in terms He discovered what none of teachers of His time known) however as far cumulation of merit&wisdom goes, he could not do what He did if in the past he didn't do what he did (and as far stories of Him goes, he was a student of a Buddha in some past life). Or in other versions He was already enlightened aeons before He manifested as Shakyamuni in our era.
So, it's a no - somehow we need the Master. And if someone has glimpses of true nature not even knowing what Buddhadharma is, such things are the results of a practice or an encounter with enlightned teachings in the past lifes.
At least this is if we assume a thingy called karma
"Be Buddhist or be Buddha"
- Pastabodhi
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
antique chorus rocks!
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
happy it pleased youPastabodhi wrote:antique chorus rocks!
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
- Dechen Norbu
- Posts: 3056
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?
The context and the question are themselves the answer. You ask it in a public Buddhist forum, to people you know little or nothing about, while saying you are a beginner. There's no need to argue about this. The definitive answer is no. Practicing togal before one is ready only brings trouble. So, back to the drawing board...Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?