Buddha or Boddhisatva?

[DarwidHalim]

As we know in Mahayana, generally Boddhisattva is classified into 10 level.

At the 10th level, Boddhisattva is still not a Buddha. Passing through 10th level is called Buddha.

If we take a look Wikipedia, at the 10th level of Boddhisatva, it is mentioned that

"Bodhisattvas on this level receive a form of empowerment from innumerable buddhas. This is called "great rays of light", because the radiance of these bodhisattvas shines in all directions. This empowerment helps them in removing the remaining obstructions to omniscience and gives them added confidence and strength. At the final moment of this stage they enter into a meditative state called the "vajralike meditative stabilization", in which the subtlest remaining obstacles to buddhahood are overcome. They arise from this concentration as Buddhas."

If we look Boddhisattva Avalokiteshvara, it is clear that on top of his head he received a blessing from Amitabha Buddha. Therefore, we cannot classified Avalokiteshvara as a Buddha. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to think Buddha blessing Buddha.

Similar case will apply to Boddhisatva Maitreya. He is not a Buddha, but a very high Boddhisatva. In the future, when he is on earth, he will be born will full 32 and 80 characters like previous Buddha.

The question is to Siddharta Gautama. Some people mention that Siddharta Gautama is already a Buddha before he came to earth. In your opinion, is this true?
Or do you think that Siddharta Gautama is a Boddhisattva before he came to earth, where he reach his Buddha on earth through his difficult journey?

Please share your view and your reasons, instead of simply an answer. Some of us may need to know how you come to your answer.

[catmoon]

I am not concerned much with such things. Even if I knew the answers, I could not prove them, and if I adopted a position, someone else would adopt a different one and there might be an unresolvable fight.

Better to choose an answer that suits you, quietly. Then continue your practice in whatever form it takes.

[DarwidHalim]

From practice point of view, that is ok.

I am looking for clarification here. I have heard many times actually, that in Mahayana, Siddharta has become a Buddha. So, he just manifest on earth and put a show how to become a Buddha.

Is there any Mahayana Sutta which mention this? Or is this just a baseless and personal view, which becomes quite popular?

[catmoon]

There is no clarification here, only the illusion of clarity. And it's a dangerous illusion, too. Don't chase this mirage.

[ground]

The question is to Siddharta Gautama. Some people mention that Siddharta Gautama is already a Buddha before he came to earth. In your opinion, is this true?
Or do you think that Siddharta Gautama is a Boddhisattva before he came to earth, where he reach his Buddha on earth through his difficult journey?

Please share your view and your reasons, instead of simply an answer. Some of us may need to know how you come to your answer.

He was born and he became the perfected bodhisattva. There is no other in this age.

Kind regards

[DarwidHalim]

The question is to Siddharta Gautama. Some people mention that Siddharta Gautama is already a Buddha before he came to earth. In your opinion, is this true?
Or do you think that Siddharta Gautama is a Boddhisattva before he came to earth, where he reach his Buddha on earth through his difficult journey?

Please share your view and your reasons, instead of simply an answer. Some of us may need to know how you come to your answer.

He was born and he became the perfected bodhisattva. There is no other in this age.

Kind regards

So, before he was born in India, is he a boddhisattva almost become a buddha, but not a buddha yet, or before he was born he is already a buddha?

Is your definition The perfected Boddhisattva = Buddha?

[ground]

So, before he was born in India, is he a boddhisattva almost become a buddha, but not a buddha yet, or before he was born he is already a buddha?

Is your definition The perfected Boddhisattva = Buddha?

He taught about himself having been a "bodhisattva" in his former lives - "bodhisattva" meaning one who is on his way to awakening to the Dharma.
A "bodhisattva" who has been on his way and finally arrives where there is no "going further", no "beyond" is called a "perfected bodhisattva". "Buddha" is just another label for "perfected bodhisattva".


Kind regards

[DarwidHalim]

So, before he was born in India, is he a boddhisattva almost become a buddha, but not a buddha yet, or before he was born he is already a buddha?

Is your definition The perfected Boddhisattva = Buddha?

He taught about himself having been a "bodhisattva" in his former lives - "bodhisattva" meaning one who is on his way to awakening to the Dharma.
A "bodhisattva" who has been on his way and finally arrives where there is no "going further", no "beyond" is called a "perfected bodhisattva". "Buddha" is just another label for "perfected bodhisattva".


Kind regards

OK. Thank you for your clearance.

[plwk]

Here's my worthless views...

As we know in Mahayana, generally Boddhisattva is classified into 10 level.

True but 'Bodhisattva' can also mean those who are first aspiring in this Path, the category you mentioned and also accomplished past Buddhas who manifest/emanate the form of a Bodhisattva in order to fulfill their past vows for the sake of liberating sentient beings.

If we look Boddhisattva Avalokiteshvara, it is clear that on top of his head he received a blessing from Amitabha Buddha. Therefore, we cannot classified Avalokiteshvara as a Buddha. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to think Buddha blessing Buddha.

Firstly, a future Samyak Sambuddha receives a prediction of Samyak Sambuddhahood from a present Buddha.
Similarly, Avalokitesvara received his prediction of from Amitabha Buddha, who is his own teacher, like how Sakyamuni in a former life received from the past Buddha, Dipamkara and Maitreya, being the designated fifth Buddha from the present Sakyamuni Buddha, who is the fourth Buddha in this Fortunate Aeon.

In some teachings I have heard, in the 11 faces/head of Avalokitesvara, the top face/head, which is a Buddha face/head, has a 2 fold explanation.
The first is the head/face is that of Amitabha Buddha, who is Avalokitesvara's teacher, who has also vowed to lead and promote the Dharma Door of the Western Pure Land of Amitabha Buddha, that's why in the Threefold Pure Land Sutras, you can read about His presence and role there. The second is that it represents the ability of Avalokitesvara of emanating a Buddha form to bridge the Dharma across to those who need this form for Liberation.

Now, Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva Himself is a past Buddha who is now manifesting an appearance of a Bodhisattva and the famous Great Compassion Mantra (which is recited all over the East Asian Buddhist world) is the one that propelled His level of attainment which was taught to Him by another past Buddha, the Thousand Rays King Stillness Thus Come One as one can read in this Sutra...

Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva then said to the Buddha:
"Bhagavan, I remember that countless billions of kalpas ago, a Buddha, whose name was Thousand Rays King Stillness Thus Come One, appeared in the world. Because of his mercy and mindfulness towards me and all living beings, that Buddha, the World Honored One spoke this Vast, Perfect, Unimpeded, Great Compassionate Heart Dharani, rubbed my crown with His golden hand and said:
'Virtuous man, you should hold this heart-mantra to give great benefit and happiness to all living beings in the future evil age.'
At that time I was just at the first Bhumi (stage of Bodhisattva), right after hearing this Mantra, I exceeded the eighth Bhumi.
At that time, as my heart was joyful, I vowed:
'If I will be able to give benefit and happiness to all living beings in the future, let me have one thousand hands and one thousand eyes immediately.' Instantly after the vow, I got fully one thousand hands and one thousand eyes on my body, then, the grounds of the worlds of the ten directions quaked in six ways, thousands of Buddhas of the ten directions emitted their light to my body and illuminated boundless worlds of the ten directions.
From then on, from countless Buddhas and congregations, I have repeatedly heard, accepted and held this Dharani, and the joys were also repeatedly aroused from My heart, and made Me greatly enthusiastic. Therefore, I transcended imperceptible births and deaths of countless billions of kalpas. Since then, I have always been reciting and holding this Mantra, and have never forgotten it.
Because of holding this Mantra, I was always born by miraculous creation (nirmana) from lotuses in front of Buddhas, and have never been born from any womb."

He mentions His teacher, Amitabha Buddha...

"After making these vows, recite My Name (Namo Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva) with the deep-felt sincere heart, also recite single-mindedly the name of My Teacher -- Amitabha Tathagata (Namo Amitabha), then recite this Mantra, 5 times or more in a day, to remove from the body the weighty sins of births and deaths accumulated in hundreds of thousands of billions of kalpas."

And on His attainment of Buddhahood....

Then Ananda asked the Buddha:
"Bhagavan, what is the name of this Bodhisattva-Mahasattva, who is so good to teach us this Dharani?"
The Buddha said:
"This Bodhisattva is called Avalokitesvara, the Unrestricted One, also called Nipping a Lariat, also called A Thousand Bright Eyes.
Virtuous man, this Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva has unimaginable mighty and holy powers.
Uncountable kalpas before, He had already been a Buddha named True Dharma Brightness Tathagata.
Because of the power of His Great Compassionate Vows, and in order to call upon all Bodhisattvas to comfort and please all living beings, He appears as a Bodhisattva.
All of you, including the Bodhisattvas, Brahmas, Gods of the 33 heavens, dragons, and divinities, should show respect to Him, do not despise Him. All heavenly and human beings should constantly make offerings to Him and recite His name absorbedly, then they will get infinite blessings and eliminate countless sins, and at the end of their lives, they will be reborn in the Pure Land of Amitabha Buddha."

And His emanations...
From the Chapter 25, Wonderful Dharma Lotus Flower Sutra:

Inexhaustible Intention Bodhisattva said to the Buddha,
"World Honored One, how does Guanshiyin Bodhisattva roam through this Saha world? How does he speak the Dharma for living beings?
How does he carry out this work with the power of expedients?"

The Buddha told Inexhaustible Intention Bodhisattva,
"Good man, if living beings in this land must be saved by means of someone in the body of a Buddha...Pratyekabuddha...Hearer...Brahma King...
Shakra...God of Sovereignty...Great God of Sovereignty...a great heavenly general...Vaishravana...a minor king...an Elder...a layman...a minister of state...a Brahman...a Bhikshu, Bhikshuni, Upasaka, or Upasika....the body of the wife of an Elder, of a layman, of a minister of state, or of a Brahman...the body of a pure youth or a pure maiden...the body of a heavenly dragon, yaksha, gandharva, asura, garuda, kinnara, mahoraga, human, or nonhuman, and so forth...the body of a Vajra-wielding spirit....Guanshiyin Bodhisattva will manifest the body of a Buddha ... Pratyekabuddha ... Hearer...Brahma King...Shakra...God of Sovereignty...Great God of Sovereignty...a great heavenly general...Vaishravana...a minor king...an Elder...a layman...a minister of state...a Brahman...a Bhikshu, Bhikshuni, Upasaka, or Upasika....a wife's body...in such a body...the body of a Vajra-wielding spirit and speak Dharma for them.

"Inexhaustible Intention! Guanshiyin Bodhisattva has accomplished merit and virtue such as this and, in all manner of forms, roams throughout the land, saving and liberating living beings.
"Inexhaustible Intention, such is the self-mastery and spiritual power of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, who roams throughout the Saha World."

Complete with the power of spiritual penetrations,
Vastly cultivating wisdom and expedient means,
Going throughout countries in the ten directions,
He manifests everywhere in all places.

The question is to Siddharta Gautama. Some people mention that Siddharta Gautama is already a Buddha before he came to earth. In your opinion, is this true?Or do you think that Siddharta Gautama is a Boddhisattva before he came to earth, where he reach his Buddha on earth through his difficult journey?

Again, this is from Chapter 16, The Wonderful Dharma Lotus Flower Sutra...

http://www.fodian.net/world/0262_16.html
At that time the Buddha spoke to the great hosts of Bodhisattvas, saying,
"Good men, I shall now explain this clearly for you. If all these world systems whether a dust mote was deposited in them or not were reduced to dust motes, and if each dust mote were an eon, the time that has passed since I became a Buddha would exceed even that by hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of nayutas of asamkhyeyas of eons.

"From that time on, I have always remained in the Saha World, speaking the Dharma to teach and transform beings. Also, in other places, in hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of nayutas of asamkhyeyas of lands, I have guided and benefited living beings.

"Good men, in that interval, I spoke of the Buddha Dipankara and others, and I further spoke of them as entering Nirvana, but those were just discriminations made expediently.

"Good men, if a living being comes before me, I observe with my Buddha eye his faith and other qualities, as well as the keenness or dullness of his faculties, and I take him across in an appropriate manner.

"In all places, although the names by which I refer to myself are different and I may be older or younger, I also appear and announce that I am about to enter Nirvana. I also employ various expedient devices, speaking the subtle and wonderful Dharma and enabling living beings to bring forth happiness in their minds.

"Good men, the Thus Come One, seeing living beings delighting in lesser dharmas, beings of scanty virtue and heavy defilements, speaks for these people, saying, 'When young, I left the home-life and attained anuttara samyak sambodhi.'

In truth, however, I became a Buddha a long time before that. I speak in this way merely as an expedient to teach and transform living beings and to cause them to enter the Buddha Way.

"Good men, the Sutras proclaimed by the Thus Come One are all for the purpose of saving and liberating living beings. He may speak of his own body, or he may speak of someone else's body. He may manifest in his own body, or he may manifest in someone else's body. He may manifest his own affairs, or he may manifest the affairs of others, but all that he says is true and not false.

"What is the reason for this? The Thus Come One knows and sees the triple realm as it really is. There is no birth or death, no retreating or advancing, no existence in the world or passage into quiescence. There is no reality or unreality, no likenesses or differences. He views the triple realm as not being the triple realm. Matters such as these, the Thus Come One clearly sees, without mistake or error.

"Living beings have various natures, various desires, various modes of conduct, and various ideas, thoughts, and discriminations. Wishing to lead them to produce the roots of goodness, he employs divers causes and conditions, analogies, and expressions to explain the various dharmas, carrying out the Buddha's work without respite.

"Thus since I realized Buddhahood in the very remote past, my life span has been limitless asamkhyeyas of eons, eternal and never extinguished. Good men, the life span I realized when formerly practicing the Bodhisattva path has not yet been exhausted and is twice that of the above number.

"As I now proclaim that I am about to enter quiescence, I am not really passing into quiescence. The Thus Come One uses this passing only as an expedient to teach and transform living beings.

"For what reason? If the Buddha were to stay in the world a long time, those of scanty virtue who do not plant good roots, who are poor and lowly, who covet the objects of the five desires, and who are caught in the net of schemes and false views, seeing the Thus Come One constantly present and not entering stillness, would become arrogant, lax, and indifferent. They would not consider how difficult it is to encounter him, nor would their hearts be reverent.

If you want further elaboration on this matter, I can think of 3 options:
a. Google sources or look for a Nichiren priest on commentaries from Nichiren interpretation as this Sutra is their main practice
b. You can raise a question on this in the Tendai Forum and we are fortunate to have Jikan, our Global Moderator here, an ordained priest in the Tendai Tradition which also upholds the Lotus Sutra.
c. Anyone else learned enough to comment on the Lotus Sutra and from other Dharmic perspectives.

Now, there is also a similar feat like the above by Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva in the Western Pure Land and later by the third Sage of the Western Pure Land, Mahastamaprapta Bodhsattva...in this Sutra

The Buddha said, “Good man, although Amitābha Buddha’s lifespan will last innumerable hundreds, thousands, and koṭis of kalpas, it will finally come to an end. Good man, after incalculable distant kalpas to come, Amitābha Buddha will enter parinirvāṇa. After His Parinirvāṇa, the true Dharma will continue for as long as His lifespan. The number of sentient beings that will be delivered will equal that during His life.

After Amitābha’s Parinirvāṇa, some sentient beings there will not be able to see a Buddha. However, Bodhisattvas who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samādhi will constantly see Amitābha Buddha. Furthermore, good man, after His Parinirvāṇa, all the precious things, such as bathing ponds, lotus flowers, and jeweled trees in lines, will continue to sound Dharma tones, in the same way as during that Buddha’s life.

“Good man, [the night] Amitābha Buddha’s true Dharma ends, after the midnight period, when the dawn breaks, Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva, seated cross-legged under the bodhi tree made of the seven treasures, will attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi.
He will be called Universal Radiance Virtue Mountain King, the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak-Saṁbuddha, Knowledge and Action Perfected, Sugata, Understanding the World, Unsurpassed One, Tamer of Men, Teacher to Gods and Humans, Buddha the World-Honored One. His Buddha Land will be naturally made of the seven treasures. Even in kalpas as numerous as the sands of the Ganges, Buddha-Bhagavāns will not be able to finish describing its splendors."

[Huifeng]

Both positions as teachings are usually perceived as expedient teachings.
Therefore, from a practice point of view, it would depend on the individual person,
as to which explanation would be more beneficial for them.
eg. people who doubt that they have the ability to become awakened,
may benefit from thinking that the Buddha was born as an ordinary person.

The issue about Avalokitesvara and Amitabha is only based on later Buddhist
iconography, and is thus unsuitable for coming to doctrinal conclusions about.

~~ Huifeng

[DarwidHalim]

Thank you for your reference. Quite confusing actually. Seems like you are a Buddha, then you become a boddhisattva again, then you become a Buddha again.

Buddha definitely can become a boddhisattva.

So in this case, the word boddhisattva is used just as a reference whether you are in a mode of helping people or not.

I don't know. I need to spend time on it.

Btw, thank you. I will look for this Mr. Jinkai.

[catmoon]

What do you mean by dangerous illusion?

Well maybe dangerous was an overstatement, but the the "dangerous illusion" is the idea that there can be clarity in a matter of conflicting dogmas lacking evidence. The best you can hope for is to agree with someone on which dogma is authoritative. The risk lies in that no matter which dogma you settle on, you will be at risk of heated arguments with people who have settled on other dogmas. Then, with deep conviction of your own correctness, you may upset others, undermine their faith, and generally damage both your karma and theirs. This is the danger of seeking clarity where none is available.

OTOH Ven. Huifeng has said something similar and less dramatically above. I think I'll go reread what he wrote now.




Oooops Sorry David, instead of replying i seem to have editted over your post. Dang nub mods. I will now attempt to move this post to a more apprpriate location in the thread. -CM

[Caz]

Ive read and reard many times from a certain teacher in the gelug tradition that Avaloketishvara, Maitreya...etc where already enlightened aeons ago but appear in the form of Bodhisattva to demonstrate this path from sentient beings

[kirtu]

Thank you for your reference. Quite confusing actually. Seems like you are a Buddha, then you become a boddhisattva again, then you become a Buddha again.

The standard Sakya view (and I assume the standard Tibetan Buddhist view) says that Shakyamuni attained complete enlightenment before he was born in his final life. The entire purpose of the final birth is to demonstrate the complete appearance of enlightenment like a opera or like following a stereotyped pattern. And this view is taken from a set of sutras (I don't know the specific sutra references but they are all common sutras to begin with).

Have you seen the online game "Game of Life"? This is an adaptation of a game designed by Sakya Pandita. At the end, after you attain enlightenment you enact the twelve deeds of enlightenment (taking birth, leaving home, displaying enlightenment, gathering disciples, teaching, and eventually demonstrating death). And then you can enter any realm you like in order to perform activities. I can't find the link right now (I did find a link but it appears that the site registration expired - so I'll write a version as this was a very valuable game). The online game was based on Mark Tatz's book "Rebirth: The Tibetan Game of Liberation."

Kirt

[Kai]

Please share your view and your reasons, instead of simply an answer. Some of us may need to know how you come to your answer.

Its actually quite standard across all Mahayana schools that Buddhahood is the 11th Bhumi, called the "All Light" and also the beginning of the path of no more training. (The last one out of Five paths) The 10th Bhumi is sometimes called "partial Buddhahood", depending on which school, you are reading or follow........

Vajrayana and classic Mahayana generally differs only on the means of one getting there, the former require empowerment, etc and the latter states that Vajra Samadhi is enough. Other than that, there is no controversy or confusion among the teachings.


Of course, Nikaya schools have a different theory but its

[DarwidHalim]

Thanks guy. I am just starting reading lotus sutra written by Thich Nhat Hanh. The lotus sutra becomes very easy to read under this author.

The answer seems lying in Lotus Sutra.

[kirtu]

Of course, Nikaya schools have a different theory but its

I don't find the Pali suttas to differ significantly from the Mahayana view. For the most part the Mahayana sutras and view are an elaboration on the view set forth in the Pali IMO.

Kirt

[Kai]

Of course, Nikaya schools have a different theory but its

I don't find the Pali suttas to differ significantly from the Mahayana view. For the most part the Mahayana sutras and view are an elaboration on the view set forth in the Pali IMO.

Kirt

Thats where you are mistaken. You need to read their Pali suttas again or their abhidhamma (which is hotly disputed among the adherents not to be spoken by the Buddha).

Hint: They don't have the teachings on the Ten Bhumi or the Five Paths...........and they don't have the doctrine on Saṃbhogakāya or a realm where only Saṃbhogakāyas of the 10th Bhumi Bodhisattvas can go. And hey, I haven't even mention Pure Lands yet.

Their Bodhisattva must be a male and he must not reach even the level of stream entry until his final life where he can be a Buddha.

For your second mistake, Mahayana followed Nikaya schools like Mahāsaṃghikas, Sautrāntika and Vaibhāṣika far more closely. Vaibhāṣika was one of the biggest Buddhist schools in India at that time (Before 600 AD) while Theravada was largely off alone and confined to an Island and parts of Southeast Asia.

Vaibhāṣika was the school that formulated the doctrine of Karma, Five Paths, etc that Mahayana Yogacaric schools eventually modified and changed, not Theravada whose theory of Kamma is also quite different from Mahayana. The doctrine of Sunyata and Ten Bhumis (and maybe even Buddha fields) is said by Chinese Buddhists to be evolved from the Mahāsaṃghikas schools.

[Kyosan]

For what it's worth, this is how I understand it. Chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra says that Shakyamuni Buddha became a Buddha not many years ago, while sitting under the bodhi tree. Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra says that he became a Buddha in the distant past. Which is correct? It may sound strange, but they are both correct.

How can that be? From the perspective of an ordinary person Shakyamuni Buddha is a man born in the Saha World who became a Buddha. That is absolutely true. From the perspective of a Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha is the dharmakaya and has existed since the distant past. I am sure that is also absolutely true. That is something that I can't understand but accept based on faith.

Here is an interesting thought, interesting to me anyway. If you no longer see things in terms of self and others, how do you see yourself? Is there an "I". If so, who is the "I"? If I understand the sutras correctly, the "I" is the dharmakaya.

[kirtu]

Of course, Nikaya schools have a different theory but its

I don't find the Pali suttas to differ significantly from the Mahayana view. For the most part the Mahayana sutras and view are an elaboration on the view set forth in the Pali IMO.

Kirt

Thats where you are mistaken. You need to read their Pali suttas again or their abhidhamma (which is hotly disputed among the adherents not to be spoken by the Buddha).

Hint: They don't have the teachings on the Ten Bhumi or the Five Paths...........and they don't have the doctrine on Saṃbhogakāya or a realm where only Saṃbhogakāyas of the 10th Bhumi Bodhisattvas can go. And hey, I haven't even mention Pure Lands yet.

In fact there are indications of a Pure Land just not the infinite Pure Lands and fleshed out doctrine found in the Mahayana. I am perfectly aware of the differences and don't need the hints. I was also aware that my statement would produce howls but nonetheless I wrote what I meant. Many of the later more elaborated doctrines in Mahayana have antecedents in the Pali suttas.

Kirt