Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

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Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Inge » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:27 pm

Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?

Can tögal be a complete path?

In the non-restricted Vivid Awareness, there are tögal instructions where one are using hearing to listen to inner sound visions, and this seems to be the same as the method that Avalokiteshvara used to gain enlightenment according to the Chinese Shurangama sutra. Is it possible that this sutra contains tögal instructions? I remember once reading that Erik Pema Kunsang said this sutra was like one long pointing out instruction. Anyway do you think it is beneficial and non-dangerous for me to do such listening practice?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:41 am

Inge wrote:Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?

Can tögal be a complete path?

In the non-restricted Vivid Awareness, there are tögal instructions where one are using hearing to listen to inner sound visions, and this seems to be the same as the method that Avalokiteshvara used to gain enlightenment according to the Chinese Shurangama sutra. Is it possible that this sutra contains tögal instructions? I remember once reading that Erik Pema Kunsang said this sutra was like one long pointing out instruction. Anyway do you think it is beneficial and non-dangerous for me to do such listening practice?


It's funny because I bought this book because of one review that mentioned togal and I read that book carefully over the course of several weeks and even started some threads about it here to clarify some things. I have no idea what parts were about togal, but I didn't see any form of practice in there that looked in the slightest bit intriguing or thoroughly described enough to actually practice. That is not to say I didn't like the book; indeed, I found there was much to think about and I will read it again in a few months, I'm sure. I took copious notes. At the moment, however, I couldn't tell you anything I really learned from that particular book apart from the thread I created here in which we all sussed out the difference between mind and phenomena. What pages are these togal explanations on?

EDIT: oh right, something about a silent sound that becomes extremely loud. I wouldn't know how to follow such "instructions," personally. I say if you can, then by all means go for it. I don't think there was enough description to do jack squat, personally. Maybe that's the determining factor right there: if you can glimpse what to do from the text, maybe you have good karma and potential to actually do it. From this guy's perspective, it was clear as mud (as usual).
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Fa Dao » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:15 am

From my limited understanding unless you are somewhat stabilized in Trekcho practice Todgal is basically a waste of time for you.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:24 am

Inge wrote:Is it possible for an interested dzogchen beginner like me to practice tögal?

Can tögal be a complete path?

In the non-restricted Vivid Awareness, there are tögal instructions where one are using hearing to listen to inner sound visions, and this seems to be the same as the method that Avalokiteshvara used to gain enlightenment according to the Chinese Shurangama sutra. Is it possible that this sutra contains tögal instructions? I remember once reading that Erik Pema Kunsang said this sutra was like one long pointing out instruction. Anyway do you think it is beneficial and non-dangerous for me to do such listening practice?


Send a email to Thrangu Rinpoche and ask him.

/magnus
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Silent Bob » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:37 am

If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Sönam » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:22 am

Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.


may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."

Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby booker » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:04 am

Sönam wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.


may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."

Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?

Sönam


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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby oberon_rex » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:21 am

Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?


No.
The need for a fully qualified guru has nothing to do with a lack of books/webcasts/whatever in the "olden days". It has everything to do with the a student recognizing rigpa in a correct and meaningful way. This requires a qualified guru who a) has recognized that state him or herself and b) can successfully ensure that the student recognizes and integrates that state. Just practicing a clutch of techniques does not, unfortunately, ensure realization. The student needs to be guided through their practice to be able to successfully discern the nature of mind from the many weird and wonderful experiences the mind can throw up as road blocks. A real live guru means that a student can, for example, question what they have said to better understand the guru's meaning.

As for Tögal, I seem to remember Rinpoche saying that the practice produces very concrete results. If a student has even the slightest attachment to that arising phenomenon then the practice will fail and will inhibit the student's ability to practice successfully at a later date.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Sönam » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:40 am

oberon_rex wrote:
Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?


No.
The need for a fully qualified guru has nothing to do with a lack of books/webcasts/whatever in the "olden days". It has everything to do with the a student recognizing rigpa in a correct and meaningful way. This requires a qualified guru who a) has recognized that state him or herself and b) can successfully ensure that the student recognizes and integrates that state. Just practicing a clutch of techniques does not, unfortunately, ensure realization. The student needs to be guided through their practice to be able to successfully discern the nature of mind from the many weird and wonderful experiences the mind can throw up as road blocks. A real live guru means that a student can, for example, question what they have said to better understand the guru's meaning.


this is only a possibility ... maybe the easiest, but definitely not "the only one". I even can remember Rinpoché saying so ...
+ my answer concerned Khenchen Thrangu's observation ...
I simply observe that many just only repeat and repeat what is used to be repeated ...

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby oberon_rex » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:59 am

Interesting. What are the other possibilities?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Sönam » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:16 pm

oberon_rex wrote:Interesting. What are the other possibilities?


Being pure enough for realizing it your self ... and for no doubt to obscures it.

And you "think" that there is no other possibilities?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby oberon_rex » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:05 pm

Yes - you are quite right.
But that is an extremely rare occurrence.
What are the other possibilities for those of us who aren't pure enough?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby White Lotus » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:14 pm

so many layers to this sandwich... after all its just a sandwich.
relaxing in my own state, as its always been... i have a sandwich for breakfast every day.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby muni » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:07 pm

Edit. Master student is misunderstood.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 20Guru.htm
Last edited by muni on Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Sönam » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:37 am

I do not disagree on the advantage of the master in descovering our true nature ... I simply disagree with those that repeat automatically that same litany, "you cannot discover ..." how do they know if they simply think so?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:54 pm

Sönam wrote:I do not disagree on the advantage of the master in descovering our true nature ... I simply disagree with those that repeat automatically that same litany, "you cannot discover ..." how do they know if they simply think so?

Sönam



I don't go in for all this, either. In fact, I think it's bs for obvious reasons. It is a wiser choice to follow a well-vetted teacher, of course, but foolish to close your mind to the potential of your real nature.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:24 pm

When we reach certain point they become the same thing of course but until we reach that point - we need guidance.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby White Lotus » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:28 pm

keep it simple. rigpa is easy.
you dont need to do or become anything.
a master can help, but he can also complicate.

keep it simple. rigpa is easy.
right now at this moment you are experiencing rigpa.
completely normal.

ego is not an issue if you see rigpa,
however it can complicate things which
are beautifully simple.

talk of non duality is for those who need
a distraction.

awareness is not supreme, just rest in reality
as it is. aware when aware, unaware when unaware.
doors, floors, walls, trees, cars, bicycles, typing at the computer...

all perfectly natural. me you. the same. me you. different.

all just natural.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Sönam » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:20 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:When we reach certain point they become the same thing of course but until we reach that point - we need guidance.


Therefore it is not possible to generalize ... who knows who has reached what?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:48 pm

True - for all I know you all may be enlightened Buddhas already.
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