Forgiveness?

[Epistemes]

Forgiveness isn't a word I hear Buddhists use much.

So, when I'm going shamatha, which is my primary style right now, negative thoughts arise - as Pema Chodron said they would. I think back on old arguments with ex-girlfriends and the pain I was feeling then - then I bring myself back to my outward breath - but then my mind wanders to people on this forum calling me a troll and how angry that makes me feel - then I bring myself back to my outward breath - and then my mind goes toward these sensitive spots. I just recognize them as thoughts and move on with the meditation.

However, when I have these negative thoughts, I want to forgive somebody whether it's myself or the people who hurt me. This is what I'd do when I practiced Centering Prayer, which is just Christianized shamatha. But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

[Malcolm]

But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

Exchange of self and others.

[PadmaVonSamba]

(snipped)
....but then my mind wanders to people on this forum calling me a troll and how angry that makes me feel - then I bring myself back to my outward breath - and then my mind goes toward these sensitive spots. I just recognize them as thoughts and move on with the meditation.
.... But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

Forgiveness requires a forgiver and a person to forgive. So there is a kind of duality set up. Also, in some sense, the forgiver is superior to the person being forgiven, because the forgiver is the one who grants forgiveness.

A Buddhist approach (and there can be many) is to ask, "Why did that person accuse me of trolling?"
And the answer is the same as why it bothers you, because that person wants to be happy, and so do you. And being accused makes you unhappy, and asking things that push people off heir comfy couch makes them unhappy. But sometimes that's okay, and if, as buddhists, we don't depend on being happy or dwell in being unhappy, then there is a lot more freedom and openness in dealing with other people. We can ask all sorts of questions and not worry about it.

"Happiness" in one way, shape or form, is always, ultimately. the motivation. If you keep asking, "why..why...why...along the way, it always comes back to this.
So, the person assumes they know better, or they are calling someone's bluff or whatever, and doing this gives them a feeling of security or importance or of being clever or whatever, and this makes them happy.

I was in another dharma forum and when I posed questions or suggested possibilities that were outside the boundaries of their understanding, my comments were basically dismissed as crap and when I objected, I was accused of trolling. It's gotten too easy to do (in internet forums)and there is no consequence if the accuser is wrong. It wasn't worth the mental frustration, then I found this forum which I think is much more open, and for the most part people are not afraid of being corrected if their facts are wrong, or so attached to their own experience that they can't see other viewpoints.
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[Paul]

However, when I have these negative thoughts, I want to forgive somebody whether it's myself or the people who hurt me. This is what I'd do when I practiced Centering Prayer, which is just Christianized shamatha. But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

This is the first thing I thought of - from the Dhammapada:

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.

[Kyosan]

Forgiveness isn't a word I hear Buddhists use much.......However, when I have these negative thoughts, I want to forgive somebody whether it's myself or the people who hurt me. This is what I'd do when I practiced Centering Prayer, which is just Christianized shamatha. But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

Even better than forgiving is not blaming or judging in the first place. If people do you wrong, speak to them about it and try to work things out with them and try to understand the problem, but don't get angry at them. Getting angry doesn't help. Getting angry creates a me-verses-them idea in your mind and it clouds your judgement.

When you are meditating and these thoughts arise, just patiently return to your meditation and don't get angry at yourself for having these thoughts. Don't get upset that the meditation isn't going as well as you might expect. We all have this problem, especially when we haven't meditated for a long time. When you are practicing samatha, just sit; and there is nothing to worry about. There is no guilt or innocence; there is no forgiving or non-forgiving.

[DarwidHalim]

Forgiveness isn't a word I hear Buddhists use much.

So, when I'm going shamatha, which is my primary style right now, negative thoughts arise - as Pema Chodron said they would. I think back on old arguments with ex-girlfriends and the pain I was feeling then - then I bring myself back to my outward breath - but then my mind wanders to people on this forum calling me a troll and how angry that makes me feel - then I bring myself back to my outward breath - and then my mind goes toward these sensitive spots. I just recognize them as thoughts and move on with the meditation.

However, when I have these negative thoughts, I want to forgive somebody whether it's myself or the people who hurt me. This is what I'd do when I practiced Centering Prayer, which is just Christianized shamatha. But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

That negative thoughts are very precious. Let's take an example anger. When we are not angry, we can easily say we won't get angry. But when angry appears, we fail.

In the meditation, if angry or pain appear, that is the best moment to learn to handle them because if we can success in it, our ability to see anger and pain for example is actually already quite advance.

So, hindrances are very precious.

Some people actually purposely create or invite anger or pain to appear because they want to be in that state to train their mind. In case, you have that frequently, I will say you are actually quite lucky. If you know how to use it, they are really a diamond.

[Ogyen]

(snipped)
I was in another dharma forum and when I posed questions or suggested possibilities that were outside the boundaries of their understanding, my comments were basically dismissed as crap and when I objected, I was accused of trolling. It's gotten too easy to do (in internet forums)and there is no consequence if the accuser is wrong. It wasn't worth the mental frustration, then I found this forum which I think is much more open, and for the most part people are not afraid of being corrected if their facts are wrong, or so attached to their own experience that they can't see other viewpoints.
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that's cuz our mods rock. The truth is if you let yourself be wrong and it's not a big deal, what's there to forgive? All the self-importance that is imputed upon a self is what drives the need to forgive and be forgiven in the sense that it's like a mental grasping, a hunger cramp in the stomach that wants validation, warmth, and happiness.

I love how you phrased this here, it's true, DW has a nice feel about it in the sense that people will give you a good outside perspective, but there's also room to just be wrong, and hey, crap happens. It's not the end of the world, we're human, ignorant and we err. No need to cling to it. I'm not saying apologizing isn't a powerful practice, but apologizing is more like an honest rendering of having mistaken something, it's not necessarily asking for or giving forgiveness. It's a simple acknowledgment.

Perhaps the OP experiences this urge to acknowledge and be acknowledged and the shortest route to understanding its habitual expression is to forgive and/or be forgiven. I think the distinction is fine, subtle, but very present. Honest confession is practiced a lot in TB and does not require any acknowledgment but your own. Forgiveness requires a forgiver and therefore in a sense distracts from the essence in which there is no one but you who can change the habitual pattern. The forgiver can't change squat for ya.

It feels good to be told by someone that they still love/care about you after you boobooed. And perhaps that is also talked about as forgiveness, however, it is not essential to have someone to tell you you're still ok, what's essential is to be present when you come apart with something that hooks you right in the righteous indignation, the habitual reaction. A key distinction that popped up in my head in response to this thread.


D. Ogyen

[Tilopa]

But what do Buddhists do? Is there no reconciliation, just arising and falling?

In the Tibetan tradition thought transformation is the main way of dealing with pain and generating forgiveness:

http://www.bodhicitta.net/HHDL%20The%20 ... mation.htm

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&cid=50

http://ventenzinchogkyi.com/suggested-r ... formation/

[LastLegend]

We invest heavily emotionally and mentally in this sensual life-sex, family, kids, eating, sleeping,etc. Then death comes after old age. Everything we think and do revolve around this sensual life. This is a maze, and we are the mice. We react with emotions when someone provokes us. See how invested we are.