Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

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Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Mr. G » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:33 pm

Hey all,

So I had a pretty bad night last night. My house was burglarized. Valuables were stolen, but nothing except a broken window was damaged.

From this, springs a question. I do my main practice at night. However, I was filling out police reports till about 1 AM, and then had to wait for someone to come and board up my broken window. I did not have a chance to do my practice till 3 AM. This counts as the day after though. Have I broken my practice commitments? Do I have to attend another blessing or full empowerment to renew my practice commitments?

Please note, I am a Sakya practitioner.

Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:13 pm

First off, I'm sorry to hear you were burglarized, brother.

As for the samaya question, I really don't think there's any fault, since it was not your intention to avoid your practice. In order to fully break your samaya, you have to have the clear knowledge and intention to do so. It sounds like you had planned to do your practice at the usual time and then some extenuating circumstances occurred. Second, you actually did the practice when you were finally able to.

Lastly, one of my lamas has advised people with daily recitation commitments not to stress too much about it if something makes it impossible for them to do them one day. He said they should try their best, but if it's not possible, don't worry, just make them up the next day. He's a well-respected Nyingma lama, not a Sakyapa, but the intent of the tantras is the same, so I don't think there's any contradiction.

Incidentally, the Tibetans don't consider that it's the next day until the next morning when there's enough natural light to see the lines on your palms. Of course, one has to pick which convention one is going to follow, or follow whatever the lama's instructions were.

P.S. If you still have any doubts or reservations, Vajrasattva practice should be sufficient to purify any damaged commitments. As an aside, it's said that 21 thorough, mindful recitations of the 100-syllable mantra (in conjunction with the daily Vajrasattva practice, of course) will purify any broken samayas that occurred during the same day.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby muni » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:31 pm

Mr Gordo,

Sorry to hear so, friend. Your diligence, courage! An example to follow.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:45 pm

Mr. Gordo, I'm so sorry that happened to you. From what I've been told by my spirital friend, Pema's words are great. Just restart :)

Kind wishes,
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Buddhanataka » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:35 pm

Just between you and me....the verb is "burgle*", past participle "burgled"; there's not really such a word as "burglarize", it is a latter-day (i.e. late 20th/21st century) invention fancifully extrapolated from the original verb....
Careful users of English woud eschew such abuse of the language, but for all that...
Commiserations...

* From Sanskrit, "bhagna" to destroy (hence our word bugger - not buggerize!), incidentally; also from Sanskrit "bhaga", to allocate a resource (hence our word bargain - and not bargainize...)
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Mr. G » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:28 pm

Thank you all so much for your help and support.

Pema Rigdzin, I spoke to Namdrol and he said the same thing as you: "It is sunrise to sunrise, not midnight to midnight."

Next step - Citti patti practice and security alarm system. :smile:
Last edited by Mr. G on Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Buddhanataka » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:32 pm

All I can say is from what you have said, I'm glad I'm Nyingma, because in Nyingma one never undertakes a practice where glinging to samayas overwhelms straight out common sense; one might well be a Roman Catholic in that case!

It worries me when clinging to Buddhist practices overwhelms common sense; Buddhism should erode clinging, not increase clinging.
When you started to saying how you might have to attend empowerments and get baptised again, because you were a half hour late to turn and bow in the direction of Mecca, or such and such, I wasn't too sure if you were being quite serious..!

Why, you yourself, mr. gordo, say thus in your signature:

If you are attached to this life, you are not a person of Dharma
If you are attached to cyclic existence, you do not have renunciation
If you are attached to your own purpose, you do not have bodhicitta, the thought of enlightenment
If grasping fixation arises, you do not have the view


Now how in the world do you reconcile this doctrine with the extraordinary fretting and fussing you described above...!??

From what you told us, in terms of the doctrine in your signature, you are not a person of Dharma; you certainly don't have renunciation!; nor does it seem like you have bodhicitta; and whatever view you do have, its not at all apparenty "the" view!
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Mr. G » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:50 pm

Buddhanataka,

You are either a very highly realized practitioner or delusional. I am a conservative tantric practitioner who relies upon what my teacher's tell me and I was concerned about the time factors involved. I have not yet the insight to take and give the commitments that are given to me. I've had Nyingma teachers too that work teach in accordance with the 9 yana approach and would find your statements to be ignorant.

The statements in my signature come from the parting from the 4 attachments. It is advice to gain the result. I have not gained that result, however that does not stop me from doing my best.

Here is another signature for you I used to have:

When fools meditate on Mahāmudrā
It generally becomes a cause for the animal realm, it is taught.

- Clear Differentiation of the Three Sets of Vows, 161 -



Buddhanataka wrote:All I can say is from what you have said, I'm glad I'm Nyingma, because in Nyingma one never undertakes a practice where glinging to samayas overwhelms straight out common sense; one might well be a Roman Catholic in that case!

It worries me when clinging to Buddhist practices overwhelms common sense; Buddhism should erode clinging, not increase clinging.
When you started to saying how you might have to attend empowerments and get baptised again, because you were a half hour late to turn and bow in the direction of Mecca, or such and such, I wasn't too sure if you were being quite serious..!

Why, you yourself, mrgordo, say thus:

If you are attached to this life, you are not a person of Dharma
If you are attached to cyclic existence, you do not have renunciation
If you are attached to your own purpose, you do not have bodhicitta, the thought of enlightenment
If grasping fixation arises, you do not have the view


Now how in the world do you reconcile this doctrine with the fretting and fussing you described above...!??
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:57 am

Buddhanataka wrote:
If you are attached to this life, you are not a person of Dharma
If you are attached to cyclic existence, you do not have renunciation
If you are attached to your own purpose, you do not have bodhicitta, the thought of enlightenment
If grasping fixation arises, you do not have the view


Now how in the world do you reconcile this doctrine with the extraordinary fretting and fussing you described above...!??


"Buddhanataka,"

There is no difference between the vows of a Nyingmapa and those of a Sarmapa or how they're to be kept, and both speak of re-entering the mandala and receiving empowerment again as a way to restore completely broken samayas (once they've been confessed and purification practices have been completed). Take a look at Nyingma lama Ngari Panchen's famous "Ascertaining the Three Vows," which is available in English and is accompanied by the late HH Dudjom Rinpoche's additional commentary. I don't think Gordo exhibited any extraordinary fretting either. He just asked a question. The Nyingma and Sarma tantras are both full of quotations about purpose of guarding samaya, how to guard it, the consequences of not guarding it, and how to mend it when it's been broken. I think it's commendable that Gordo is committed to maintaining his samaya and is being careful.

Now, since you made some accusations about Gordo's supposed contradiction of the teaching in his signature, I though I'd mention that:

The intended purpose of taking Buddhist vows is to purify attachment to the features of cyclic existence, to purify attachment to one's own purpose, to purify one's coursing in cyclic existence, and to remove the mind's adventitious stains in order to realize buddhahood and benefit others. One could not claim to be a person of Dharma, in other words one committed to these aims, if one were to take vows willy nilly and then cast aside mindfulness and concern about whether or not one was keeping them.

In the event we notice a Dharma brother or sister who has some small misunderstanding about what constitutes breaking a vow, even if he or she is in fact fretting excessively, it would seem to make more sense to have some compassion and understanding toward him or her and clear up the misunderstanding, rather than accusing them of being attached to this life and having no bodhicitta. Geez...
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Buddhanataka » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:27 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:"Buddhanataka,"

There is no difference between the vows of a Nyingmapa and those of a Sarmapa or how they're to be kept.


Good heavens....now I've heard it all!
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:07 am

Please do enlighten us all as to how there's a fundamental difference. But please do it in its own thread so we don't hijack this one with off-topic posts.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Annapurna » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:59 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
There is no difference between the vows of a Nyingmapa and those of a Sarmapa or how they're to be kept, and both speak of re-entering the mandala and receiving empowerment again as a way to restore completely broken samayas (once they've been confessed and purification practices have been completed).


This requires a clarification of what constitutes "completely broken samayas". I am quite certain it is intentional neglection, and since this didn't happen, all is fine. Ask the teacher?
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Buddhanataka » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:27 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Please do enlighten us all as to how there's a fundamental difference. But please do it in its own thread so we don't hijack this one with off-topic posts.


So your house gets broken in, and you have to go away and attend to the paperwork and thereby miss one prostation or circumambulation by 5 minutes or 2 hours and then you seriously fret and fuss about having to get re-empowered or re-baptised and take vows again, its extraordinary and there are really no analogous performances in the daily life of a Nyingmapa. It sounds more like something a Muslim or a Jesuit would be thinking about!
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Virgo » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:47 pm

Buddhanataka wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Please do enlighten us all as to how there's a fundamental difference. But please do it in its own thread so we don't hijack this one with off-topic posts.


So your house gets broken in, and you have to go away and attend to the paperwork and thereby miss one prostation or circumambulation by 5 minutes or 2 hours and then you seriously fret and fuss about having to get re-empowered or re-baptised and take vows again, its extraordinary and there are really no analogous performances in the daily life of a Nyingmapa. It sounds more like something a Muslim or a Jesuit would be thinking about!


I'm a Nyingmapa and I won't go to sleep until I fulfill my commitments. That is the way it should be. Maybe you are confused because in Nyingma we practice Dzogchen which takes a laid back approach in meditation. This laid back approach doesn't mean we should not fulfill your commitments or or not guard our samayas-- it simply means that we should meditate in a way without adjusting anything, yet there must be presence; distraction means you have lost your mindfulness, and practicing incorrectly. Simply because someone practices Dzogchen or Mahamudra doesn't mean that they don't have to protect their samayas and commitments. We always have to be vigilant.

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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:15 am

Buddhanataka wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Please do enlighten us all as to how there's a fundamental difference. But please do it in its own thread so we don't hijack this one with off-topic posts.


So your house gets broken in, and you have to go away and attend to the paperwork and thereby miss one prostation or circumambulation by 5 minutes or 2 hours and then you seriously fret and fuss about having to get re-empowered or re-baptised and take vows again, its extraordinary and there are really no analogous performances in the daily life of a Nyingmapa. It sounds more like something a Muslim or a Jesuit would be thinking about!


First off, you're projecting a whole lot onto what Mr Gordo actually said. It didn't sound like he was freaking out like that to me. Even if he were, how does that justify you belittling him and the Sarma traditions and spouting off about how "a Nyingmapa wouldn't fret about such trivial things"?

Second off, you're talking to a Nyingmapa right now who knows better. Have you ever heard of Ngari Panchen Pema Wangyal or Dudjom Rinpoche? How about Ngari Panchen's "Ascertaining the Three Vows," which HH Dudjom Rinpoche - the former head of the Nyingma lineage - wrote a commentary on and which is the primary text Nyingmapas follow when it comes to the three levels of vows? If you'd study that text, you'd see where they mention that after confessing one's completely broken samaya and purifying the fault through extensive practice, one should re-enter the mandala and receive empowerment again. They also both delineate the time periods that constitute each "session" of the day and the faults of not confessing and purifying one's broken commitments that occurred during a given session before the session has ended. There's all kinds of stuff like this in Nyingma because the enlightened intent of all HYT tantras is identical, even if there's a bit of difference in approach. But maybe you know better than these two Nyingma masters and all the Nyingma masters that followed their example.

Bottom line, although Nyingma masters don't typically give daily recitation requirements, the samaya to heed the vajra guru's instructions and the commitments one has made is identical whether in Nyingma or Sarma.

Actually, the real bottom line is that when you come across a Dharma brother or sister that is having some difficulty on the path, you only harm yourself and them when you choose to be all pompous and belittle them and their traditions and big up yourself and yours. If there's some light for them to see, help them to see it in the spirit of kindness, patience, and generosity.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Buddhanataka » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:22 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote: you're talking to a Nyingmapa right now who knows better.


Is that so?
Have you ever heard of Ngari Panchen Pema Wangyal or Dudjom Rinpoche?

I'm a great, great follower of Dudjom Rinpoche.
By the bye, who is going to be the next IC of the Nyingma, I wonder?
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Virgo » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:57 am

Buddhanataka wrote:
By the bye, who is going to be the next IC of the Nyingma, I wonder?


It doesn't really matter. As long as Nyingmapas keep their samayas, all the blessings will remain intact.

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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Mr. G » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:06 am

Buddhanataka,

You make it sound like I was freaking out, which I wasn't. I was definitely concerned, no doubt. But if you are a follower of H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche's teachings, you most certainly need to review your understanding of samaya and be concerned as well. You or anyone else should be especially concerned about samaya if you have a daily protector(s) practice as well which can sometimes come with even heavier commitments. You may feel I take samaya too seriously, but I think you take it too lightly.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Buddhanataka » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:30 am

mr. gordo wrote:if you are a follower of H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche's teachings, you most certainly need to review your understanding of samaya and be concerned as well.


I didn't say I'm ONLY a follower of Dudjom Jnanavajra...mostly I follow Shakyamuni Buddha, Padmasambhava, Rongzom Choskyi Zangpo, Longchenpa and Jamgon Mipham, and Samantabhadra and Vajrasattva, Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra and Candrakirti, and Shri Simha and Karma Glingpa if you really want to know.
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Re: Getting Burglarized....and Samaya Question.

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:38 am

Buddhanataka wrote:I'm a great, great follower of Dudjom Rinpoche.

Then you should study his teachings rather than indirectly insulting them while belittling other traditions that say exactly what he said. HH Dudjom Rinpoche also interpreted the root samaya of not denigrating other traditions to include non-Buddhist traditions, so if you're a great follower of his, you should stop belittling the Christians and Muslims in their religious observance while you're at it.

Buddhanataka wrote:By the bye, who is going to be the next IC of the Nyingma, I wonder?

This thread wasn't even about Nyingmapas to begin with. Mr Gordo, a Sakyapa, asked a question about his observance of samaya.

Buddhanataka wrote:I didn't say I'm ONLY a follower of Dudjom Jnanavajra...mostly I follow Shakyamuni Buddha, Padmasambhava, Rongzom Choskyi Zangpo, Longchenpa and Jamgon Mipham, and Samantabhadra and Vajrasattva....if you really want to know.


Yes, I'm sure we're all very impressed with your familiarization with the verbiage and the Nyingma lineage masters' names. the various texts you're aware of, etc... But when you lash out at a Dharma brother in need and belittle him and his lineage instead of helping him, then fail to even acknowledge your fault and instead regurgitate some familiarization with Tibetan and Sanskrit and a bunch of names and texts you've heard of, how is that honoring those masters and teachings you revere?
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